Encrypted Text: The subtlety rogue of tomorrow

Last week, Blizzard released the Cataclysm talent preview for rogues. If you read my coverage of the changes, you noticed that I mentioned that Master of Deception is missing from the subtlety tree. While I praised the change due to the removal of the frankly dumb mechanic of stealth levels, many rogues were worried that this meant all rogues would be left with simply basic stealth and we'd be sitting ducks against any competent opponent. Luckily, Lead Systems Designer Ghostcrawler chimed in on the issue, and informed us that all rogues would gain the benefits of Master of Deception, and for free.
It's clear from looking at the previewed talent trees that Blizzard's design intent is to try to give each rogue tree some PvP viability. By removing three filler points that any rogue serious about PvP was forced to take, they allow us to explore other talents deeper in our core trees. Subtlety had the reverse problem, though, where the tree was too PvP focused and didn't have enough damage talents to let it compete in a raid environment. Aside from one broken talent for a few months, sub rogues have been stuck in battlegrounds and arenas in Wrath. The new subtlety tree looks to have several new DPS talents available, but will it be enough to bring this spec back to life?
Based on my own speculation on the upcoming talent trees, I believe that Blizzard wants to move every rogue spec to a two-finisher cycle. This would be similar to the currently popular Eviscerate-only combat cycle, where the only two finishers used are Slice and Dice and Eviscerate. Mutilate looks poised to start using Rupture and Envenom, giving it two finishers to use as well. However, that depends on if Venomous Wounds turns out to be powerful enough to vault Rupture over Envenom in Cataclysm. Mutilate could even entertain thoughts of a maintaining Expose Armor for only two GCDs a minute if Improved Expose Armor is picked up.
Subtlety needs a solid rotation
Where does that leave subtlety in the mix? We're not exactly swimming in damaging finishers. Even if we do talent into Energetic Recovery, I don't see Recuperate being a bread-and-butter DPS ability. Obviously subtlety will have to keep up Slice and Dice, so that's one finisher in the mix. The presence of multiple bleed talents, such as Hemorrhage, Blood Spatter, Sanguinary Vein, and Serrated Blades, points towards a Rupture-using spec as well. But the new Serrated Blades also implies that we'll be using Eviscerate as well, which would have us maintaining a three-finisher cycle. That's where I feel the rogue experience starts to fall apart, and I start to feel like a warlock or shadow priest instead.
However, I believe the goal is to have subtlety using Eviscerate so often that Serrated Blades will allow us to keep Rupture active without actually having to waste energy or combo points on it. Serrated Blades would essentially become a parallel to Cut to the Chase, which makes sense since they're on the same tier of talent points. What I can't understand is why Blizzard would leave it to a 60% chance? Rogues hate chance. Blizzard should take the lessons they learned from 90% Improved Sap and 90% Cloak of Shadows and give us a way to refresh Rupture more reliably. Making the wrong decision when Rupture's duration is ticking low would simply be so frustrating.
Honor Among Thieves gets another shot
Subtlety rogues will be swimming in critical strike chance by the time they reach level 85. With Backstab picking up 30% crit chance from Puncturing Wounds and the sub rogue gaining 15% from Malice, Dagger Specialization, and Honor Among Thieves, and assuming a 20% base crit chance, we'll be looking at 60% crit chance on Backstab easily, while still in the first tier of Cataclysm gear. In a raid situation, they'll only be looking at 5% more critical strike chance than in Wrath, but the key is the redesigned Honor Among Thieves. Now it not only provides the great 5% crit buff to your raid, but it also works off any raid member's crits. The downside is that it was nerfed to only allow us to gain a combo point every two seconds, but with raid-wide application, it should result in us seeing one combo point every two seconds pretty regularly.
Figuring on one Backstab every 3 seconds as a sub rogue, mixed with a combo point every two seconds, and you're going to be pulling off a ton of finishers. However, even in a best-case scenario, using both Glyph of Rupture and Glyph of Backstab to prop up Rupture's duration, the chance of a Rupture falling off is several percent, between 7% and 15% based on how tight your cycle is. With the new, deeper placement of Puncturing Wounds in Assassination and the serious bloat in the lower tiers of subtlety, it's also impossible to pick up Improved Slice and Dice, making this rotation even more difficult to pull off on a regular basis.
Rupture should be like paying taxes
We're trading the unpredictability of the old Honor Among Thieves for the new gamble of trying to keep Rupture and Slice and Dice up at all times, while still getting in enough Eviscerates to make the whole thing worthwhile. Serrated Blades doesn't even need to mirror Cut to the Chase, it could instead clone Improved Expose Armor, letting a subtlety rogue put up Rupture with no cost of combo points. A spec based around bleeds simply cannot afford to let its only bleed fall off. Even feral druids' Nom Nom Nom talent gives them a 100% chance to refresh their Rip.
I hate to take it to this level, but when you really boil it down, Rupture is a just a bleed. There's nothing interesting about bleeds, in fact their entire existence is based around the idea of consistent, predictable, and boring damage. Trying to gamble with bleeds is simply a bad idea. If subtlety rotations keep looking like "spam whatever finisher you want and hope it works out," then all the mastery tweaking in the world won't bring this spec back to life.
Conclusion
What subtlety needs right now is an overdose of fiber to get itself regular again, and the new Serrated Blades mixed with a heavily bleed dependent tree is not going to get the job done. Otherwise we're back to where we started in Wrath, and sub rogues will bind half their keys to Backstab and the other half to Eviscerate and let a Logitech G15 macro play their character for them. I'd love for subtlety to get its own unique rotation, but it needs to be something we can nail to the wall and theorycraft. No rogue wants to cross their fingers every time he Eviscerates, hoping to the shadow gods that he gets a lucky Rupture refresh.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Scaramoush Jun 16th 2010 11:14AM
Just to clarify, feral's Nom Nom Nom only works when the mob is sub 25%. It's an execute mechanic, not our standard cycle.
grimmeld Jun 16th 2010 11:34AM
then sub should get a sub 25% bonus as well!
Debesun Jun 16th 2010 11:51AM
@ grimmeld
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=14083
There you go :)
Mike Jun 16th 2010 11:26AM
Coincidentally, the idea of PvEing as Subtlety came up with a friend last night. I know next to nothing about Rogues, but had decided that when I roll one (likely in Cata), I'd be going with the spec that uses daggers, preferably faster ones. My friend told me that that would be Subtlety, but isn't anywhere near viable or fun for PvE. Hopefully that'll be fixed in Cataclysm, and looks like it might be!
Despard Jun 16th 2010 11:43AM
My rogue is mired in the mid-40s for the simple reason that I rolled her as Subtlety because I enjoyed the playstyle while soloing (sneaking past all the mobs and stealing stuff ftw!). And now whenever I take her into dungeons I do embarrassing, appallingly low DPS.
Sure I could respec but I *like* subtlety! I already have a 'bashing shit' character, that's my warrior main. I wanna be sneaky and stabby while at the same time do more damage than if I was flailing with a wet dishcloth.
Maybe I'll dust her off and bring her out again if this gets fixed come Cataclysm.
(cutaia) Jun 16th 2010 12:11PM
I ran into similar problems with a level 35 Rogue I've got. I chose Subtlety, well...mainly just to make people mad for going PvE Subtlety.
My main issue with it in dungeons is that I never feel like I have enough buttons to press once the first mob in each pack is dead. Sure...the opener is fun, but then I seem to stand their auto-attacking and waiting for energy. I've never done any other rogue spec so I'm never sure if that downtime occurs because I suck or if it's because I went Sub.
But at least I have a lot of lockboxes...
Despard Jun 16th 2010 1:46PM
Yes, that's exactly my issue! Not enough buttons and lots of downtime. I guess that improves once you pick up Shadow Dance?
I have another rogue about level 12, so I can't really compare Subtlety to anything yet. But yes, the lockboxes are nice!
Derrek Jun 16th 2010 2:14PM
@ (cutaia)
I've gotten my rogue to 55 ( partly due to RaF granted levels, but w/e ), and while I'm currently Sub, I did go Combat for a while back around Gnomeregan. It seems that whatever spec you choose, your rogue will spend lots of time with low energy. I didn't enjoy Combat overly much so I went Sub for the rest of my instance-leveling.
Even though Sub is the PvP spec and "not for PvE", I still manage to top the meters against my fellow dungeoneers.
I think the main thing is not energy regen but rotation. The talents and glyphs you pick up will determine what openers and finishers to use. Once you get Hemo ( I think it's around level 30 ), drop Sinister Strike from your rotation and spam Hemo instead. The lower energy cost, higher damage w/daggers and damage increase effect make it an awesome combo-point generator. I glyphed Garrote and usually spend my combo points on Rupture, because the bleeds let me switch targets while keeping up a nice stream of damage. I don't normally S&D over Rupture and only Evis when the target has low hp or there are no targets to switch to after applying a Rupture.
I didn't talent Ambush because I rarely use it against trash mobs and Cheap Shot is my opener of choice in PvP. The extra crit chance is nice but it's not reliable enough considering Ambush is only used once per fight at most.
Anyway, that's how my noob rogue does the rogue thing. I'm probably doing -something- wrong, but I don't much care at this point because nobody can tell until it's too late. :P I am going to go Combat before 60 so I can pick up Killing Spree and terrorize the clothies in AV, and depending on if I like the rest of Combat I may stick with it.
Derrek Jun 16th 2010 2:18PM
Oh yeah, one last thing. Bleeds are your friend. Glyph of Garrote and using Rupture for most adds will keep your damage up while your energy is low. The rogue isn't really a dot class but they do help me feel like I'm not just auto-attacking 70% of the time.
(cutaia) Jun 16th 2010 3:12PM
Thanks for the advice. Every little bit helps. After all, there really isn't anywhere to ask about PvE Sub, because people generally just go, "I stopped reading after PvE Sub, stop being 'bad,' etc., etc., etc..."
Nipah Jun 16th 2010 5:08PM
I have a 60~ Rogue that runs dual-spec through the dungeon finder... I roll Mutilate for when I'm with people, and Sub when I'm out mining... I don't really see Sub builds in use for the most part, especially in a group environment... even though I find the spec fun, I drop it for the DPS I pull in with Mut.
Though it is really fun to have the increased speed + increased stealth speed + an almost guaranteed 1-shot on things a few levels below you... Though now I'm wondering if those speeds stack, or if I just think they do...
James Jun 16th 2010 12:35PM
According to the Armory Data Mining site Subtlety is the least common of all specs, so it needs all the help it can get.
jordan Jun 16th 2010 12:46PM
I figured sub rogues would want to sub spec combat for d/w spec, aggression, improved snd, lightning reflexes and the blade flurry cooldown.
Goodk4t Jun 16th 2010 7:42PM
They do. Chase didn't do his research after patch 3.3.3 and has no idea what he is talking about. :)
Debesun Jun 16th 2010 12:51PM
Personally, I like the looks of the new Sub spec. Definetly a refreshing change compared to my experiences with the other two specs. Combat being "Keep SnD up, spam SS for points, Evis for finisher" and Muti being "Keep HfB up, muti to 4-5 combo points, Envenom finisher (don't clip Envenom buff)." Only significant difference between WotLK and Cata for those two specs is that Muti doesn't have to worry about HfB and get a DPS buff CD, and combat will be able to lower the CD on Killing Spree and Blade Flurry with finishers.
At least in a nutshell, you could describe Sub in Cata as "Open with Garrote for Sanguinary Vein talent, 100% uptime on Hemo (ignore if you have Mangle, Trauma, etc), 100% uptime on SnD, 100% uptime on 5 point Rupture, Backstab as Combo point filler, Eviscerate as finishing... filler, cheer if it resets Rupture"
Of course you also have Shadowstep (before applying Rupture?) Energy pool for Shadow Dance, Prep and stuff. The 12% chance per combo point (60% with 5 combo points) to refresh Rupture seems iffy'ish but you'll be doing plenty of Eviscerates and plenty of DPS specs in the game have that element of RNG and you'll have more problems finding a DPS without a portion of its DPS being dependant on RNG.
I would enjoy a more 'busy' rogue spec for those with different tastes. Lets just hope that Blizzard can keep the damage it deals inline with the other specs, and we can't exactly discuss that properly until we know the scaling of abilities at 85.
And as always, things are subject to change :P
SleepySlug Jun 16th 2010 2:52PM
I'm also really excited.
I really like that phrase at the end, "busy rogue", as I feel that applies to the new foreseeable playstyle of the sub spec in general. I like busy because it means that if it's even close to balanced and you play it well, usually you'll be pulling insane numbers that completely boggle other players and force a double-take (the thing I personally strive for most in-game ;) ) The busy playstyle of this spec does remind me quite a bit of a feral druid. Anyone who's played seriously as a feral druid knows that it's one of the more complex playstyles with lots of things to juggle all at once, but if it's done correctly and well, it was also one of the specs that could see the most output (at least for a while, I am actually not too current on the state of feral dps as I haven't played my druid in feral dps for quite time). It may be tough to do, but I think that if this spec is actually balanced close to right that I may at least subspec my rogue to sub for a bit in Cata and see how it plays out. If I'm even competitive in this spec, I'll probably keep it since it does look like the most fun vs the other two where it's pretty much a 3 button rotation and watch my cds. I like busy.
Also, did anyone notice that ALL 3 of the sub spec masteries apply to Eviscerate? Phys dmg, check. ArP, check. Finisher dmg, check. Depending on the actual numbers that could mean that sub rogues will be hitting for ridiculously strong Eviscerates pretty much every 5 seconds, with a really strong Evis at no extra cost every 20 seconds thanks to Shadowstep + Filthy Tricks.
On a similar vein, anyone know if Rupture would fall under two of them? I can't recall if bleed dmg is considered physical (I think it is, but not positive). It's also a finisher, so it should fall under that final mastery as well. If this also stands it means that a sub rogue's rupture will eventually scale enough to surpass a muti-rogue's rupture + venomous wounds (depending on how strong this talent ends up being). Food for thought
Cy Jun 16th 2010 12:52PM
A dream come true...
I kept trying to raid subtlety in vain (Stage 2: Denial =P) after a year long hiatus from Wrath, and there are moments when you can actually pull some damage out of it, but they are so few and far between and its a real house of cards in the meantime. Plus the other rogues will floor you without even trying. But who hasn't had a torrid love affair with Shadowstep?
Come on Cata...
Docseuzz Jun 16th 2010 12:53PM
I feel the same way as many of the above postings - I love the gameplay style of sub - IMHO, it's the most 'rogue-like' of the playstyles. I see combat more of a swashbuckling, two sword wielding pirate type, assassination focusing more on poisons... Subtlety is all about the stabbing in the back... :) Here's hoping it makes a PvE appearance in Cata
Pyromelter Jun 16th 2010 12:57PM
I know sub is fun, but really, I don't get what's so wrong with assassination. Fleet footed is a great talent, and if you want to have more cc/pvp utility, you can pick up improved kidney shot and the talent that adds crippling poison when you hit with wound/deadly poison. And didn't they announce that shadowstep would become a baseline ablility?
I think with subtlety, a whole revamp might be in order if they want to make it PvE viable. If you think about what the word "subtlety" means, it means being underhanded, tricky, finesse-like. Combat rogues are like brawlers in the street. Assassin rogues are the ninja's that slice your throat from behind and you're dead before you know it. The idea of being "subtle" just doesn't scream high dps. And if blizz is really removing the stunlock from pvp, then that would make subtlety even less viable than it is now.
I don't know, it just seems like from a role perspective, a whole new thought process might help. Maybe make that 3rd tree a "Martial" tree, where instead of being a deadly knife user or a street brawler, you are more like a kung-fu/jiu ji tsu black belt. Maybe have that tree focus on maces and fist weapons, where you would do a lot of punching and kicking, and for defense you have a talent that gives you a 100% to parry for 5 seconds. Maybe have the combo point generator be "Jab" where you are punching with your fist weapon, and have a finisher that's like "uppercut" or... wait for it... wait for it... "Roundhouse Kick," and cue the Chuck Norris jokes.
Malkeinu Jun 16th 2010 1:04PM
I've played a sub only spec on my 51 rogue and totally love it. It's a blast for leveling, not for the sneaking around, but because of the massive opening abilities that can take a mob down sometimes in 2 shots if you crit them. With a 4 second stealth, you're back to your massive opener on the next mob. However, the problem is that in a group dungeon, you get your stealthed opener and then stand there hitting with wet noodles while the other melee gets to use your hemo buff for even more dps. I was excited for mutilate at 50, so I respecced, did a level, and went back to sub because mutilate was so slow and clunky for leveling. It just wasn't fun and I was disappointed.
I believe that it would be silly to try and say each spec should do the same thing. I'm having fun right now with sub. When I hit 80, I'll probably switch so I can have fun in a different way. In the end, that's what matters, and I'm ok with that. If it wasn't fun, it wouldn't be a game.
Also, random question, if one does go Subtlety at 80 right now, which additional tree is doing better to finish out talents? I've seen specs that go combat for daggers and haste, and others that go assassination for poisons and crit. Just curious.