Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsOfficers' Quarters: In defense of guild talents
by Scott Andrews 
Jun 21st 2010 at 2:00PM
About a week ago, Blizzard revealed all the latest updates concerning their gameplan for Cataclysm. Among them were a host of changes to the new guild systems and UI overhaul that were originally announced at BlizzCon 2009. Today I'd like to focus on the removal of guild talents. In future columns, I'll address other changes.
Guild talents get the axe
Two of the biggest announcements from last week were not new features but the cancellation of previously announced features: Path of the Titans and guild talents. I've heard a lot of complaints from people about removing the Path, which is to be expected -- it was considered a key feature of the expansion and a long-awaited means to customize your character beyond talents after glyphs, in the words of Ghostcrawler, "didn't live up to what they could have been." It's a shame they couldn't make the Path work, but I'm hopeful that the revised glyph system will compensate for its loss.
On the other hand, I'm not hearing nearly as many complaints about the removal of guild talents. Again, perhaps, this is to be expected. After all, Blizzard's plan is to replace them with unlocked perks that you receive automatically as your guild levels up. In other words, every guild will get every talent. Awesome, right? For guild members, yes. For officers, not as much.
I'm sure many people will disagree with me on this point. Ghostcrawler had this to say:
Ghostcrawler -- Guild TalentsGuilds are, for the most part, groups of friends. We don't want features to drive wedges between them. We don't want you to guild hop looking for the talents that suit you best; we want you to play (or in many cases keep playing) with your friends. With a talent tree, guilds would naturally have different talent trees, which creates a reason to bail or guild hop that doesn't exist today. If you didn't like the direction the guild was taking (for example, you were a PvP guy with a GM focused on raid-progression) you might feel like you should leave. That can happen today of course, but you can also stay in a PvE guild just because you like the members even if you don't participate in the same content because you're not losing out on inherent guild benefits.
I agree with him in theory. There is a risk (as well as a benefit) inherent to making your guild different from others, and it's not impossible to imagine that spec'ing your guild a certain way could have caused this scenario. In practice, though, I wonder if such a thing would really happen.
I mean, what sorts of talents was Blizzard planning such that choosing one over another could actually drive people out of your guild? During BlizzCon, they listed examples such as increased gold drops, removal of reagents for raid-wide buffs, mass summon, mass resurrection, and reduced repair bills. If someone gquits over whether they get more gold per kill instead of foregoing reagents, I'm pretty sure there are additional factors at play.
Yes, if there were talents that gave you 10% more damage and healing in battlegrounds but not in raids, then I could see people moving to another guild if they wanted that extra 10% to apply to their raiding instead. I strongly doubt Blizzard would have implemented such game-breaking talents though.
I wish Ghostcrawler had provided a few examples of talents that might have had a negative impact on your guild, because I just don't see how a realistic "perk" talent choice could make such a big difference that people would actually gquit.
Why do I care?
As I explain in Chapter 1 of The Guild Leader's Handbook, it's important to define your guild, to give your guild an identity that sets your organization apart from others on the server. Doing so provides a number of benefits, not the least of which is more effective, targeted recruiting. Of course, there will always be guilds who want to be all things to all people, but it's vastly easier to run a guild with a focused purpose and a strong idea of the types of players who would want to join.
To date, all such differentiators have been external, by which I mean they are chosen by the officers but they have no actual representation in the game itself. You need to speak to guild members or read the guild's policies on its website in order to understand what the guild is all about.
With talents, Blizzard had a means for allowing officers to differentiate their guilds using the game's own interface. For that reason, talents could have been a huge win for officers, but now it looks like we won't get this functionality in WoW. (I should mention that the new recruiting feature in the UI may allow you to choose from one of several labels that describe your guild, which is a small step in the right direction.)
In my opinion, it is possible to provide talented differentiators that don't necessarily drive away players who aren't part of a guild's major activities. For example, in a progression-oriented raiding guild, you might choose a talent that provides 5% increased reputation gains for PvE factions (i.e., Sons of Hodir) over one that provides the same gains for PvP factions (let's assume Cataclysm has PvP factions that actually matter). While it's true that a player in your guild who PvPs rather than raids may not benefit as much, she still does benefit. It's hard to imagine that the cumulative difference of talent choices would affect her game experience to the point that she would leave a guild she was happy with and players she liked for the sake of minor convenience. Perhaps I'm giving too little credit to a player's desire to min/max her time, but I just don't buy it.
The risk of drama
Ghostcrawler's other reason for removing guild talents is this:
Ghostcrawler -- Guild TalentsFurthermore, we felt like the decision-making, for many guilds, would be up to a relatively few people, possibly as few as the guild master. Talent trees work for classes because the decision is up to you. We didn't want to create the risk of drama over choosing those talents or even not being consulted in choosing them.
GC, I take umbrage with you here. Call me sensitive, but this statement is an insult to your game's officers. You're pretty much saying, "We don't trust you to make decisions that won't cause problems."
Officers have to make difficult decisions all the time. Sometimes it's better to talk to your players and achieve a consensus. Sometimes it's better to act alone for the benefit of the guild as a whole. Good officers know when to move forward with either method. By taking this power out of our hands, Ghostcrawler is telling us that we don't know how to do our jobs.
Beyond that, I was honestly shocked by this statement. Never before has Blizzard so much as batted an eye at whether their game design would "create the risk of drama." Where was this concern when they decided to create a 5 > 10 > 25 progression path in Burning Crusade? Where was this concern when they were implementing the Immortal achievement? Or restricting Algalon access to individual players rather than the guild as a whole? Or creating four separate lockouts for Trial of the Crusader? Or designing the Tribute to Immortality achievement? Or making cool and purely aesthetic rewards such as the Amani War Bear, Mimiron's Head, and Invincible -- rewards, by the way, that take the dedication and hard work of everyone involved for months at a time in order to earn -- drop one. at. a. time?
C'mon, GC. Some days I feel like you guys do nothing but sit around your office inventing new ways to "create the risk of drama." Seriously, that is not card you get to play at this point. Don't get me wrong: I love that it's finally occurring to you and I hope that this represents a shift in thinking. However, I'll believe you actually care about that when I see it over the course of an entire expansion.
Ghostcrawler also goes on to say that it's easier for Blizzard to make adjustments and add more perks over time without worrying about a talent tree, and that is completely understandable. At this point, anything they can do to get Cataclysm into our eager hands faster is a good thing. Even so, I also feel like the dumping of guild talents is a missed opportunity for officers, and I don't think Blizzard's reasons for this decision, beyond the basic logistics of it, are particularly strong.
What do you think?
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott@wow.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
Skizzit Jun 21st 2010 3:47PM
I still do not see why everyone is assuming that removing the talent trees means we will have access to all of the talents as perks. It is likely more to be like going from the "guilds will be able to choose from either chicken or fish" model to "All guilds will get some parts of chicken and fish smashed together into some kind of fishken nugget" model. Some of the talents will become perks and the rest will never see the light of day. However since we were never given a list of what all the talents would have been, there will be know way to ever know this.
Rubitard Jun 21st 2010 4:12PM
@Skizzit: You are mourning the loss of something that may or may not have ever been. You're a sore winner. You win the bet and complain you should have been allowed to double down. Well, okay. But this type of thinking is the reason I'd like to see Blizzard simply not make any announcements about what they're doing. The WoW public simply can't handle the process involved in making the game. All those things that you think are cool in theory -- without ever having seen or used an actual working version -- all the sudden are this great loss that sours your experience. As with many other things in life, don't be saddened by what may have been, but be glad for what is. And what is, isn't just yet. Soon, though.
Dave Jun 21st 2010 3:19PM
Because some people wanted to use this to define their guilds? So you wouldn't be pissed if your class had three specs, but no talent trees? Just a button and bang you are DPS?
I imagine you enjoy the customization talents give you, as limited as it may be by min/maxing.
Dave Jun 21st 2010 3:21PM
I will say, mentioning his book...again...is tasteless. I'm sure someone in AOL legal/marketing would be pissed if they noticed it.
ps Sum is when you add two amounts, Some is part of a sum.
Cataca Jun 21st 2010 3:31PM
He is mainly talking about the downside of not being able to make the guild unique with a desirable spec and being able to use that spec to recruit new members.
Having all of the talents is good, no one would disagree with you there.
Removing a means to make your guild unique? Not so hot, but it was done in the interest of minimizing drama.
The other point is that Blizzard made the choice to minimize drama because they think that most guild officers wouldn't be able to make everyone in the guild happy with the talent system. The author is insulted that Blizzard thinks that most officers couldn't handle the drama.
I wouldn't call that ego-maniacal, but I do think he puts too much faith in the abilities of officers to minimize their own drama. There is too much drama around as is, no need to add gasoline to the fire.
Skizzit Jun 21st 2010 3:39PM
Where did anyone ever say you would get all the talents as perks in place of the ability to pick just some? There is no way that is happening. It would be entirely pointless.
If every guild had +5% gold drops, blizz would just make raid bossed drop less gold overall. If every guild had +5% rep gain, instance mobs would give less rep as a baseline. They might as well just increase the gold drop and rep gain period and drop the whole guild perks all together. Same goes for reagents. Just remove reagents from raid sized buffs and you would have the same effect.
I bet they will add the unique ability ones like mass rez and mass summons, and also give us access to purely cosmetic items over time like mounts that display guild banners and such, but the others will go bye-bye.
Cataca Jun 21st 2010 3:39PM
A good example of this a friend just told me...
Say you are at an ice cream shop and are looking at all the different flavors but can't decide so they make the decision for you by giving you one scoop of everything.
Yay, you have -ALL- the ice cream! But, wouldn't you be insulted that they didn't think you able enough to make a choice that you'd like?
Cataca Jun 21st 2010 3:48PM
@Skizzit
"The guild bonuses used to be talents. They are now more like leveling spells. We call them perks now instead of talents. We haven't cut any content, but just changed the UI from boxes with prereqs to a list."
I'd say they said it right there, eh?
Source:
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/25399601135/please-rethink-the-guild-tree-and-path-removl/
Dave Jun 21st 2010 3:50PM
Don't feel bad, Tony and Loth are hating on Scott for this article, and they don't get that some people like customization, versus all options at once. See some dudes ice cream example above. I'm willing to bet you they are playing browser/IP games as well, to fix the ranking. And before you say it can't be done...you are wrong. :)
Dave Jun 21st 2010 3:50PM
Reply fail.
The Dewd Jun 21st 2010 3:53PM
Frankly it comes down to the fact that talent trees are more fun than a serial progression though perks. Just think of how many talent tree simulators exist on the web - and that's not even counting the "official" ones at the main worldofwarcraft.com site. There are already mockups of the released trees from the Beta. (Is it a Beta yet? Or is it still in Alpha and we have to keep waiting?)
As a guild leader, I'd really have to be able to see the tree(s) to determine if we're missing something at this point. Was it really going to be interesting and complicated enough to hold everyone's interest? Were there meaningful decisions to make? Or was there going to be a standard PvE talent progression and a standard PvP talent progression that we'd all inherit from the World/Continent/Server-First crowd?
Frankly it sounds like, given the general douchebaggery of some guild leaderships (not just the GM but his/her cronies in the officer positions) having guild talent trees could really lead to more drama as people form up against each other over every little decision.
Psyche_DH Jun 21st 2010 3:54PM
Given the propensity of players to adopt 'cookie cutter' talent specs once EJ (or someone else) has theorycrafted the optimal set, I believe the same will be true of guild talents.
Someone will theorycraft the perfect set of talents for a PVP guild, another for raiding. If your guild does not have the right talents, then it may cause a barrier for recruiting and retaining players in your guild.
You claim that talents would allow for another degree of differentiation of guilds. I maintain that it will not. Cookie cutter guild talents will prevail, thus restricting your selection of talents.
I highly prefer the current method where all guilds get all talents. There are so many other ways for guilds to differentiate themselves, this one with its potential pitfalls need not be a new one.
Signed by a hunter with a wolf.
Not because I like wolves but because any raiding hunter without a wolf is mocked.
Zanathos Jun 21st 2010 3:58PM
Scott writes a consistently great column. Just because he disagrees on guild talent implications doesn't mean he's an evil maniacal leader. It means you have a difference of opinion, something all humans will experience throughout roughly all of their lives, unless they join a cult or something. It's all right.
I think he's way off base here also, but that doesn't mean he's a cartoony supervillan.
cielago Jun 21st 2010 4:01PM
You have very good points and they seem great on paper, wich I guess was the devs idea when they said they'd introduce guild talents, then came the alpha and with it an implementation sample, I'd like to know how much drama was there with guilds made up of "friends and family" but i strongly doubt blizz will release that info =P.
My guess is guild talents were more drama than they are worth, although you point that guild leaders have to take unpopular desisions, since non officers are directly contributing to the guild progression I'm guessing they feel entitled to have a say in the direction of said progression.
It could be that they are saving time and resources by scrapping guild talents, but I doubt it since from what I've read they are perks that wouldn't afect combat, and thus far easier to balance that "real" talents.
It is true that guilds will not gain individuality via talents, but i guess blizz couldn't find a middle ground between guild personalisation and desition entitlement drama.
Kylenne Jun 21st 2010 4:17PM
You know what, Scott (and others who are lamenting the "lack of customization" automatically meaning their guilds won't have anything special to offer)? At the end of the day, if you need a guild talent system to make your guild stand out and be special, you have much deeper problems as a guild and as officers than a talent system can solve. All I'm reading here is crying that you'll actually have to put in work rather than dangle some gimmicky carrot in front of people to get them to join. Which is totally laughable and frankly embarrassing to read. People should want to be in your guild because it meets their needs as players, because the members stick together and help each other out, because the leadership makes it a good environment for everyone involved by leading by example. Not because your guild has some Special Snowflake basket weaving power no one else has. If the former sounds like a lot more hard work than the latter, well, tough shit sunshine. Them's the breaks when you agree to lead an organization, even if it's a hobbyist one.
I've been a guild officer before, in raiding guilds and RP guilds. I know what kind of hard work goes into it. I also know that in the current environment, there are many unhappy people who feel trapped in guilds they despise, because the way it is now it's really the only way they can progress in the game. I also know that damn near every casual raiding guild, for instance, eventually experiences drama between the more laid back people, and the people that feel like they're being held back and want to go more hardcore. Or the PVP guilds who have the hardcore arena people and the more casual BG types. The talent system as it was originally proposed would have done nothing but exacerbate all of that. It would have added "customization" at the expense of fracturing guilds apart. And ultimately, it would have hurt guilds far more than it would have helped, which Blizzard wisely came to realize.
Irem Jun 21st 2010 8:36PM
Yup. I'm honestly a little stunned to see someone complaining that "Blizzard doesn't trust GMs/officers!" when they're the ones who get to read constant reports and forum posts about guild drama. They're designing an MMO, and if they don't dramaproof the support systems within it to a certain extent, they're perfectly aware of just how badly one person can screw up the gaming experiences of many other people. I'm sure Mr. Andrews and his officers are trustworthy people who would make reasonable choices and enjoy the customization, but in the end it puts too much pressure on the GM and officers to make the "right" choices, or risk causing problems and even losing members. If I were still running a guild, I'd be thrilled at the change just because it would mean not feeling like I had to take a vote every time we got a new talent point.
Koffee Jun 21st 2010 4:32PM
To all those who are thrilled that every guild gets all the talents now I have more good news for you: Blizzard has decided to avoid any potential drama and give out the new legendary caster item in cataclysm to ALL players! There won't be any questlines or parts to collect. In fact, it will be in your mailbox at launch! So now everyone will be happy!
Okay the above was snark but it was to prove a point. I'm going to mention something that everyone dances around but is afraid to say out loud. Value in WoW is determined by rarity. An item's value is inversely proportional to the number of players that have it. To put it more simply, the less people that have something, the more YOU want it. Offering guild perks in place of talents simply eliminates what was originally a new way to introduce a limitation. And Scott was right about using it to "define yourself as a guild". More than just PvE or PvP, what if you were looking for a 'world PvP' guild but most of the PvP guilds had talents in Arena and BG areas? What if you found a guild that proudly boasted that they were the "only guild on the server that had the 'summon a guildmate to you anywhere in the non-instanced world' talent" (I made that one up obviously) that was only available deep deep in the PvP tree; a talent the guild had to take by denying some nice Arena thing? You would say 'hey! finally a guild for me!' It's a way to define yourself as a guild.
Now a lot of you are already getting ready to reply with 'but if everyone has it then you still get it...'. That's not the point. The point is a person can better find where they belong by using the talent choices to determine if they will fit in there. The imaginary guildless toon I mentioned above won't have to bounce from PvE guild to Arena guild to BG guild to find the one that just likes to cause trouble and fight out in the world. Without the guild talents, there is one less way for that person to determine if a guild is right for them. And there's one less way for a guild to find the people they are looking for. There's more hay covering the needles.
Rubitard Jun 21st 2010 5:40PM
False equivalency is false.
Koffee Jun 21st 2010 7:04PM
Come up with a better analogy for guild talents than "choosing chicken or fish" and then teach me about false equivalency.
Irem Jun 21st 2010 8:42PM
"The point is a person can better find where they belong by using the talent choices to determine if they will fit in there. The imaginary guildless toon I mentioned above won't have to bounce from PvE guild to Arena guild to BG guild to find the one that just likes to cause trouble and fight out in the world. Without the guild talents, there is one less way for that person to determine if a guild is right for them. And there's one less way for a guild to find the people they are looking for. There's more hay covering the needles."
That was the whole point of the talent tree being removed. Blizzard didn't want people to use guild talents as a way to pick the guild that they "belong" in. That wasn't the purpose of it. There's an excellent way to find out what the focus of a guild is, and that's to ask the bloody people running it, and if your hypothetical guildless toon is bouncing from guild to guild because he can't be asked to find out the focus of a guild before wasting their time I wouldn't take him on in any case. The feature was not meant as a "PvPers go here, PvE players go here, casuals go here" flagging system, and they removed it because that's what they were afraid it was going to be.