Encrypted Text: The new style of rogue PvP

I often see players talking about their experiences in PvP, sometimes in trade chat or a battleground. Almost inevitably, after a few minutes of chatting, the old stereotypes about each class start coming out. They'll start complaining about paladins having three lives, due to Divine Shield and Lay on Hands. They'll label any arena composition with a warlock as a "drain team," even though warlocks are clearly capable of massive burst damage now. If there's an arena team composition that they don't like to face, that comp is immediately labeled as cheesy or unskilled.
I don't really care if warlocks get a bum rap, it's up to them to convince the public that they can nuke too. What I am concerned about is that rogues have been stereotyped since the earliest days of vanilla WoW, and we need to break that cycle. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I would suggest watching the World of Roguecraft films. These early pieces of WoW machinima firmly cemented rogues as stunlocking gods in the minds of thousands of players. Even now, with Cataclysm putting the final nails in stunlocking's coffin, we will still be thought of as dirty fighters that need to be nerfed.
Part of the problem with breaking the stunlock stereotype is that rogues are going to need a replacement style of play. While every class has their own abilities and tricks, you can boil down the role that a class plays in PvP pretty simply. The problem is that nearly every rogue mechanic becomes a double-edged sword in PvP. While cooldowns are great, they leave us vulnerable while not available. While stunlocks were great, we didn't have the survivability to live if our target didn't die. While stealth is great, it is only valuable for a few seconds a game. Even resilience worked against us, as most rogues couldn't afford the damage loss of wearing PvP gear.
Toning down cooldowns
The first step towards establishing the PvP rogue of Cataclysm is to tone down the level of invincibility that rogues can achieve when all cooldowns are ready. Blizzard is actually taking action on this indirectly, by lengthening the amount of time that matches take to lessen the effect of cooldowns. I am sure they are committed to this by looking at the life pools of characters at level 85, I am sure a tank could top 100,000 HP if they wanted to.
Extended fights not only soften the blow of our cooldowns, but they also amplify their strategic importance. We have to be conscious of our opponents' actions and abilities, so that we know when to use our cooldowns for the maximum effect. The same way that you wouldn't use Blind against someone with their trinket up, you similarly wouldn't use Adrenaline Rush when an enemy rogue has Combat Readiness available.
Rogues should be a bad target
Survivability has been something plaguing rogues for years. We are the only melee class that fights in leather, as druids are able to shapeshift into bear form if they need to survive. Our base armor was lower than even most cloth casters, due to their various buffs and talents. We also had no healing spell to speak of, and no damage reduction spell either. Rogues used to work off the idea that we could simply avoid damage instead of trying to reduce the damage we did take. This worked in the innocent time of vanilla WoW PvP, but it simply does not work in today's environment. When a stun can completely negate all of our defensive abilities, you know that we're in trouble. Every other melee class has a way to get around evasion, even rogues do via Shiv.
Reducing incoming damage is the only way for a target to stay alive reliably in PvP. We've got new talents in our Cataclysm trees that help us take less damage, by boosting our armor or reducing the damage outright. We've got a new finisher that not only heals us, but can be talented to do a variety of useful things. Our new ability Combat Readiness will ensure that any team that tries to train us will find themselves hitting for half damage. Finally, with a working Vanish in our tool belt after many long years, we can even escape when the time comes. We've come a long way from having Cheat Death as our only survivability tool, and I think that these changes are the right direction to making us "tanky" enough to handle PvP in a post-stunlock world.
The stunlock is gone
The stunlock has been bleeding out for years. Diminishing returns nearly killed the stunlock years ago. Taking Blind off of Preparation hurt it even further. The stunlock has been gone for a long time, but putting Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot on the same diminishing return category should be the last that we hear about it. With our classic Cheap Shot into Kidney Shot combo, we'll only be stunning our targets for 7 seconds. That's only a second longer than a Hammer of Justice, while ours cost us an opener, a 5-point finisher, and tons of energy. It will actually become better to do a reverse, that is, using Kidney Shot then using Vanish to Cheap Shot. That would yield us an 8-second stun, though also costing us Vanish.
Conclusion
People are still going to need to be stunned. Without Stealth or Vanish, our ability to stun hasn't really changed. The only difference is that now players will have a chance to fight back after the stun has ended. While that may sound like the end of the world, the fact is that people actually like to play their characters. The other difference is that now we might actually have the survivability to take them on after the stun wears off. We need to get away from the idea of stunning our targets to keep ourselves alive, and we need to get away from the idea that avoidance is better than mitigation. We need to be compatible with the longer PvP encounters of Cataclysm, and it looks like our talent trees and new abilities are pointing the right direction to get us there.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
dan Jun 23rd 2010 7:17PM
"Blizzard is actually taking action on this indirectly, by lengthening the amount of time that matches take to lessen the effect of cooldowns."
On the other hand, increasing match length gives us more chances to get a double prep, or to see our CDs become available for a third time.
vaillin Jun 23rd 2010 7:41PM
I'm not worried over the change, for one with talents all we will be really doing is opening with garrote(for assa depending on the nice poison talent to are bleed dmg) or ambush, with talents its pretty much only 2 ss/hemo or one muti to a full KS.
So ya we lose a couple secs. But we now have a chance to get even more burst or in the case of assa a nasty bleed that also does nature damage. along with vendetta assa rogues wont need that extera couple of sec's and the other specs will have a greater opening burst.
Thus the stunlocks not dead, just the CS-KS combo that low lvl sub rogue's and even higher lvl one's already don't use and they do just fine when played right.
Glaras Jun 23rd 2010 7:55PM
"Only 7 seconds." Only?! And against a stunned opponent, you do how much DPS? Let's be conservative and say that a decently-geared rogue will do in the vicinity of, say, 6K. I'm well aware that there are some that do significantly more than that, but let's just play with that. So in "only" 7 seconds, you're going to do around 38K of damage, since you're not going to be able to actually do a full 6K for the entire time. And then, of course, you can Vanish before your victim has an opportunity to retaliate. Which sets up the next series of attacks.
At the moment, my shaman in his PVP rig has, unbuffed, a mere 24.5K. You'd need a little over half of your available 7 seconds to kill me. Part of it, of course, is that shamans have been getting crapped on since they were originally nerfed from the near godlike status they had when they were Horde-only... before my time, I'm afraid. We have the worst base health of any class, and the mail armor doesn't really help much.
Sorry. I'm not buying for one second the continued commentary about how much Cataclysm is going to nerf your stunlocks. I will wait until I see it for myself, but I'm not holding my breath.
Chase Christian Jun 23rd 2010 8:01PM
You are using WotLK values for both DPS and life.
Also remember that no rogue can do 6k DPS solo in PvP gear, it takes buffs to get up to that level, and we're already spending energy on CS and KS.
In Cataclysm, players will have much more life relative to DPS.
Pyromelter Jun 23rd 2010 8:20PM
But chase, Rogues have a lower GCD than pallies. Also, for pallies to get their massive damage going, it takes more than 6 seconds (what will amount to 3 GCD's including the HoJ cooldown) for them to put out that burst.
Cheap shot-mutilate-mutilate-kidney shot-vanish-ambush-mutilate-envenom will kill virtually anyone who isn't in super high end resil or tank gear. Of course, a good pvp'er will know to trinket the kidney shot to break the stunlock, but rogues are dirty rotten scoundrels and will just continually sap someone for the lulz until the player gets frustrated and trinkets out of the sap. Or, a newbie pvp'er will trinket that sap and be boned by the combo I just tossed up there.
Rogues have insaaaaane burst especially as mut with a couple of good daggers.
Bvannas Jun 23rd 2010 8:22PM
I second Chase's comment.
Also Shaman Base Health was increased in a WotLK patch so they didnt have the lowest base heath of any class. (this was after the class Q and As were released.)
Hopefully the removal of arp in cataclysm will make mail armour matter more.
And shamans dont have to sit there doing nothing, even today. This is PvP, you have that trinket if you need to use it. But As resto you have heals to help you, earthsheild if you have it on yourself. Enhancement can use shamanistic rage, and ele has even greater tools, thunderlol and the 30% less damage taken when stunned spring to mind.
I think cata will be lessening stunlocks, and be all the better for it. For both sides, close battles can emerge, over binary 'win/lose' in those few seconds.
Pyromelter Jun 23rd 2010 8:27PM
Oh, I would also like to add that my point was also in favor of lessening the stunlock and giving rogues more abilities to defend or attack outside the stunlock. So in that context, I definitely agree with Chase and the other posters.
Turtell Jun 23rd 2010 8:30PM
Not to mention nature's guardian or whatever the resto talent is that boosts your health when you go below 30%. I'm in pretty midrange pvp gear on my restoman and I rarely die to rogues. It helps that as a healer I'm almos always within range of someone who needs healed. They're usually more than willing to help me out.
tatsumasa Jun 23rd 2010 9:26PM
6k dps against someone with 0 resilience maybe. any rogue who can do that against someone who is in 1.2k+ resilience is one bad mofo....
Edge Jun 23rd 2010 9:12PM
Guess you don't use Shamanistic Rage when you are stun locked then? And if you trinket fast enough you should be able to get off either wolves or stoneclaw totem (depending on spec, but no shammy should be without glyph of stoneclaw in PvP). All that there will practically double your effective health to closer to 40 or 50k at least if not more. Lately rogues have honestly been the least of my problems, but I am in about 1200 resilience at the moment.
Jagd Jun 24th 2010 1:15AM
Pyro your an idiot that rotation requires 260 energy to execute plus blows one of our very few defensive cooldowns. Love to see how you managed to come up with that rotation. Know what your talking about before you post.
Lets not forget that rogues are the assasins of WoW. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person. This is how rogue players like to see themselves - not as some leather wearing warrior hybrid but as an assasin. Who said we wanted to stand foot to foot with a warrior clashing daggers with two handed swords? Take out our stuns and you asking us to stand toe to toe with plate wearers - if thats the direction blizzard want rogues then they better give rogues some insane leather gear that has a thin layer of kevlar under it.
Lemons Jun 24th 2010 1:55AM
@Pyromelter
Actually the KS would end before the last mutilate and envenom because you'd run out of energy. So during your *retarded* stunlock cycle you did 2 mutilates and 1 Ambush. Against a moderately geared target I'd say you probably did about 8k damage. Bravo. It's actually best to do CS > 1-2 mut > KS > don't waste your vanish > mut > evenom because envenom is going to do more damage than an ambush against most targets. And yes all of that fits in a stunlock.
Rogue's "burst" is some of the worst for a pure dps, and it's even pretty bad for most hybrids. Speaking as a rogue who is pretty goddamn geared I can tell you that no one dies in my stunlock unless they are very VERY undergeared OR I had help.
Gothia Jun 24th 2010 7:00AM
Your attitude is what bothers me the most about PvP. Face it you are once again looking at PvP as a solo experience instead of a team sport. One thing that has needed to change for a long time in PvP is the solo mentality that many players get into when PvPing in battlegrounds. You are not in this alone, we have an objective, and people need to focus on these objectives instead of trying to solo while bitching about not getting any heals. The reason you don't get heals is because your healer is stun locked and 2 seconds away from an untimely death because you can't focus 5 yards away.
Glaras Jun 24th 2010 6:25PM
I hope you weren't talking about *my* attitude. I run my shaman as Ele in BGs, rather than my preferred spec of Resto because my survival was so poor I felt... and *was*... useless. I couldn't get anyone to take a few seconds to make sure I wasn't getting ripped to pieces a few steps behind them. So I opted for ranged DPS to literally give myself a fighting chance, and even that has proven to be slim-to-none.
I understand about PVP not being a solo endeavor, but apparently you don't understand precisely how often it becomes that. I actively seek out fire-support positions, and try to team up with others, but at this time, there is literally no incentive at all to most people to go for the actual objective of the BG. All they care about is maximizing their kill totals, and their own personal bonus honor. In Cyclone, at least, the Alliance is hopelessly crippled by this kind of mindset. I've given up trying to urge people to fight at the flags, cap the towers, help the FC... you know the drill.
So I agree with you in principle, but those principles don't reduce the stunlocks. And they don't reach to the masses of people who refuse to get better at this portion of the game. So I guess I'll just wait for Cat, and see if this so-called "stunlock nerf" actually materializes, but I've learned not to be too hopeful.
Miralya Jun 28th 2010 9:45AM
I'd like to see every moron who QQs endlessly about how OP stunlocks are, and how they die before they can get out of it every time try actually playing a rogue in level 80 pvp. They would quickly realize that while we have a fearsome toolbox, many of our best skills really aren't that difficult to survive against. I learned far more about how to beat rogues on my other characters by playing one.
Pyromelter Jun 23rd 2010 8:24PM
The stunlock isn't dead, it's just dead in arenas where everyone knows how to not be bad (ie, trinket kidney shot and stay in combat so you can't be sapped). Any rogue that can sucker someone to trinket a sap or a cheap shot will absolutely assassinate you with a simple mutilate rotation with a vanish and an ambush thrown in there. (Or if mutilate is gonna hit harder than ambush, just spam mutilate.)
wutsconflag Jun 23rd 2010 9:24PM
I don't care what anyone says about nostalgia or rose-colored glasses ... I miss Vanilla WoW.
*sigh*
I'd never seen the World of Roguecraft videos, but thank you for linking them. Brought back a lot of memories. I especially liked the ganking in Ironforge in the auction house. One thing you very quickly learned on a PVP server was that *nowhere* was safe if you were PVP flagged.
Ah, the memories...
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Getting rid of the stunlock. Yes, good, good. Diminishing returns are great. Reminds me of the "ZOMG NERF WARLOCKS FEAR OP!!!" that comes up quite often, though maybe not as much as it used to?
Redielin Jun 23rd 2010 10:09PM
Actually, rogues have terrible burst. And no real execute phase. Paladins (for example) do much more damage (and at range) when the target is low on health.
Rogues don't have burst, they have cooldowns and stunlocks, which is to mean, they have prep and vanish to extend their stunlocks. When GC talks about binary play this is what he means. Either A or B happens (a binary choice):
A - The rogue is able to stay in stealth and get the opener, and also has prep up so is able to capitalize. (There isn't really any thing the other player can do about this, except to either outgear the rogue so they can't be killed or seriously wounded during a full prep stunlock or hope that they can somehow break their stealth before they get the opener. Sap doesn't help here.)
B - The rogue is out of stealth without their cooldowns. Either their teammates bail them out or they die.
This may sound like it is a good situation because of the 'style' of a rogue (the ninja-assassin), but as it has been pointed out, a class based around killing opponents before they get a chance to respond is pretty silly in MMO PVP. That's what rogues currently are, and it needs to change. That means rogues are going to get more baseline survivability beyond just cooldowns, but that means the tradeoff is less ability to lock down a target and pump damage into them at the same time.
nekorion Jun 23rd 2010 11:06PM
Aw this article opening reminds me off my old favorite wow joke
What do noobs and rogues have in common?
They both pick locks ;D
Oriflame Jun 23rd 2010 11:53PM
"The only difference is that now players will have a chance to fight back after the stun has ended. While that may sound like the end of the world..."
To many (bad) rogue players, this probably does sound like the end of the world - what a sad bunch. "Zomg! People can fight back!"
Now, if they actually fix rogues so they don't straight one shot average geared players in the sub level 30 BGs, I'll see them as no longer broken class in leveling PVP... but until then, I'll keep playing a rogue in the leveling BGs.
Though... if they do that, some of the rogues I encounter on my cloth wearing leveling toons might actually know what to do when you survive the stun, and that would really dampen my fun. "oh no! he has heals and stamina enchants.... uh.. Disarm! Take that priest!"