Encrypted Text: The new style of rogue PvP

I often see players talking about their experiences in PvP, sometimes in trade chat or a battleground. Almost inevitably, after a few minutes of chatting, the old stereotypes about each class start coming out. They'll start complaining about paladins having three lives, due to Divine Shield and Lay on Hands. They'll label any arena composition with a warlock as a "drain team," even though warlocks are clearly capable of massive burst damage now. If there's an arena team composition that they don't like to face, that comp is immediately labeled as cheesy or unskilled.
I don't really care if warlocks get a bum rap, it's up to them to convince the public that they can nuke too. What I am concerned about is that rogues have been stereotyped since the earliest days of vanilla WoW, and we need to break that cycle. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I would suggest watching the World of Roguecraft films. These early pieces of WoW machinima firmly cemented rogues as stunlocking gods in the minds of thousands of players. Even now, with Cataclysm putting the final nails in stunlocking's coffin, we will still be thought of as dirty fighters that need to be nerfed.
Part of the problem with breaking the stunlock stereotype is that rogues are going to need a replacement style of play. While every class has their own abilities and tricks, you can boil down the role that a class plays in PvP pretty simply. The problem is that nearly every rogue mechanic becomes a double-edged sword in PvP. While cooldowns are great, they leave us vulnerable while not available. While stunlocks were great, we didn't have the survivability to live if our target didn't die. While stealth is great, it is only valuable for a few seconds a game. Even resilience worked against us, as most rogues couldn't afford the damage loss of wearing PvP gear.
Toning down cooldowns
The first step towards establishing the PvP rogue of Cataclysm is to tone down the level of invincibility that rogues can achieve when all cooldowns are ready. Blizzard is actually taking action on this indirectly, by lengthening the amount of time that matches take to lessen the effect of cooldowns. I am sure they are committed to this by looking at the life pools of characters at level 85, I am sure a tank could top 100,000 HP if they wanted to.
Extended fights not only soften the blow of our cooldowns, but they also amplify their strategic importance. We have to be conscious of our opponents' actions and abilities, so that we know when to use our cooldowns for the maximum effect. The same way that you wouldn't use Blind against someone with their trinket up, you similarly wouldn't use Adrenaline Rush when an enemy rogue has Combat Readiness available.
Rogues should be a bad target
Survivability has been something plaguing rogues for years. We are the only melee class that fights in leather, as druids are able to shapeshift into bear form if they need to survive. Our base armor was lower than even most cloth casters, due to their various buffs and talents. We also had no healing spell to speak of, and no damage reduction spell either. Rogues used to work off the idea that we could simply avoid damage instead of trying to reduce the damage we did take. This worked in the innocent time of vanilla WoW PvP, but it simply does not work in today's environment. When a stun can completely negate all of our defensive abilities, you know that we're in trouble. Every other melee class has a way to get around evasion, even rogues do via Shiv.
Reducing incoming damage is the only way for a target to stay alive reliably in PvP. We've got new talents in our Cataclysm trees that help us take less damage, by boosting our armor or reducing the damage outright. We've got a new finisher that not only heals us, but can be talented to do a variety of useful things. Our new ability Combat Readiness will ensure that any team that tries to train us will find themselves hitting for half damage. Finally, with a working Vanish in our tool belt after many long years, we can even escape when the time comes. We've come a long way from having Cheat Death as our only survivability tool, and I think that these changes are the right direction to making us "tanky" enough to handle PvP in a post-stunlock world.
The stunlock is gone
The stunlock has been bleeding out for years. Diminishing returns nearly killed the stunlock years ago. Taking Blind off of Preparation hurt it even further. The stunlock has been gone for a long time, but putting Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot on the same diminishing return category should be the last that we hear about it. With our classic Cheap Shot into Kidney Shot combo, we'll only be stunning our targets for 7 seconds. That's only a second longer than a Hammer of Justice, while ours cost us an opener, a 5-point finisher, and tons of energy. It will actually become better to do a reverse, that is, using Kidney Shot then using Vanish to Cheap Shot. That would yield us an 8-second stun, though also costing us Vanish.
Conclusion
People are still going to need to be stunned. Without Stealth or Vanish, our ability to stun hasn't really changed. The only difference is that now players will have a chance to fight back after the stun has ended. While that may sound like the end of the world, the fact is that people actually like to play their characters. The other difference is that now we might actually have the survivability to take them on after the stun wears off. We need to get away from the idea of stunning our targets to keep ourselves alive, and we need to get away from the idea that avoidance is better than mitigation. We need to be compatible with the longer PvP encounters of Cataclysm, and it looks like our talent trees and new abilities are pointing the right direction to get us there.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Bumblebee Jun 24th 2010 12:05PM
"Now, if they actually fix rogues so they don't straight one shot average geared players in the sub level 30 BGs, I'll see them as no longer broken class in leveling PVP... but until then, I'll keep playing a rogue in the leveling BGs."
Wouldn't count on that, Oriflame. PvP ain't balanced around leveling toons, but at level cap. As evolved as the game is now it's a rather tall order to hope for class balance in lower brackets. At 85 though we should probably see something very close to a balanced game.
Here's hoping!
Lemons Jun 24th 2010 2:07AM
there's a few more things that make me hopeful that cata pvp will be better than wrath.
1- plate isn't going to contribute as much armor as it does now. That might mean we could get away with using eviscerate against a plate wearer and it wouldn't hit for the same amount as a warrior's melee swing (cause they stack arpen, get it?).
2- GC said he doesn't like casters getting so much haste that their casts are virtually impossible to interrupt, so that's going to change in cata. I like this cause I get tired of healers doing .7 second casts, and I have to be some sort of superhuman to interrupt them.
I am worried that our stunlocking ability is going away in cataclysm. They better give us something to balance it out, and by that I mean more damage. It's great we're getting survivability but that doesn't make up for damage output. Considering that GC said our pve rotations will be more about the abilities we use rather than passive stabbing I'm guessing our combo generators and finishers will be hitting harder. I can't wait!
valkry Jun 24th 2010 6:26AM
2- GC said he doesn't like casters getting so much haste that their casts are virtually impossible to interrupt, so that's going to change in cata. I like this cause I get tired of healers doing .7 second casts, and I have to be some sort of superhuman to interrupt them.
I reckon reaction time goes hand-in-hand with "skill."
Lemons Jul 7th 2010 3:18AM
@valkry
Well it doesn't take much skill on the part of the caster to fire off insanely fast casts that are nigh-uninterrupted. It should be a two way street, not a "I'm gunna do this and if you have precognition then maybe you can counter it."
Driodofthewild Jun 24th 2010 3:26AM
As it stands atm, a druid shape shifting into bear form vz certian classes (UnhDK, Ret pala, Arms Warrior) is just signing your own death, they will out dps you once in bear form and not only that but your dps will be compleatly nullified via death strike / instant FoL and Seal of justice kiting/ a combination of second wind blood craze and enraged regeneration. This is not even including ghoul scrafice or paladin bubbles or a warr who is smart and uses his sheild to revenge spam with sheild block up etc. I would say 8times out of 10 bear form is useless, all I use it for the spell intrupt feral charge, bash and frenzied regen. With the idea of people having 50k hp in pvp gear and % based hp regen I am not looking forward to cata as a feral druid. can just imagine seeing (omg that noob feral just stuned the warr) why is that a bad thing? cause it now not only has second wind, but more than likely blood craze from one of the many crits I do. What now? It regenerates like mad.
Natsumi Jun 24th 2010 4:01AM
Blood Craze is completely useless. At 30k health that's 1800 health over 6 seconds, or 300 health per tic. You'd be better served with a pocket Druid, Priest, or Shaman. Paladin would work too, I guess, but it's easier to stop them from healing.
Going with Cata figures, where PvP gear has Stam out the azz, 6% of even 100k is still only 6k health over 6 seconds, it doesn't stack with itself (Meaning if you get crit 2x you don't get 12% life back, it just refreshes the duration) and the measly amount of health returned is laughable when compared to the amount you just took.
Second Wind is EXACTLY the same strength of heal (1% life per second) which is still pretty useless, what makes it GREAT though is it's 2 talent points instead of 3 AND it gives you RAGE with witch to murder that bastard that just stunned you.
What would cause concern for you as a feral Druid in Bear form would be if these were INSTANT heals (making them actually not too horrible for the talent investment) but you'd still be better off with a healer in your back pocket. Warriors were designed with the worst vulnerability and best synergy with healers, to the point that if the warrior has a healer, he won't die, but he drops faster than a mage to a Boss's Cleave without one.
Minrus Jun 24th 2010 11:54AM
What did the Rogue say in World of Roguecraft?
"I've never had an opponent stunned for more than 90% of a fight."
I think that PvP balance *should* be considered in one-on-one matches. As much as battlegrounds and arenas are team-oriented... PvP often ends up being fought mano-a-mano. I cannot recount the number of times I've had to run a flag by myself. Or guard a flag or node alone. Whenever that happens, I'm easy prey for a Rogue.
I've only recently gained enough Resilience gear to survive through a Rogue's stuns. Even so, I still have problems fighting them. They still win in *most* encounters. My whole strategy is to pray I survive the stun, then run away casting instant spells. Of course, this all fails when the Rogue sprints. My only true hope after a series of stuns is that a teammate arrives. If this happens to be World PvP, there's only a tiny chance of anyone coming to help.
Rogues are all offense. And they are GOOD at it. They sacrifice a great deal of defense because they can stealth. A Rogue's survivability is tied to them making good choices in terms of timing and targets. Rogue's may be weak after the stuns wear-off, but considering they can kill or drop their opponent to 10-20% health... I'd say the playing field is MORE than tipped in the Rogue's favor. Perhaps this will all change in Cataclysm. So, I've got a "wait and see" attitude for now.
In Cataclysm, I'd like to see any class be able to defeat any class equally. That probably isn't going to happen, but I can dream can't I?
Filet Jul 11th 2010 4:05PM
Just took my first toon--a rogue--to 80. I suck at pvp so i avoided it--and duels--like the plauge. I'm not part of a guild (very rogue-like, eh?) so most everything i've done, except for pug-runs, has been solo-pve.
That said, I want to pvp more but at 80, i feel completely lost in every way: from keybinds to movement to talent spec... it just feels like it's 'too late' for my toon to find a way into pvp and actually get better/good.
I thought starting a new rogue, on a pvp server, would give me the chance to grow into the pvp way of being, level by level. Thoughts?
Filet Jul 11th 2010 4:08PM
ps- I mean to ask if it's even worth it at this point to jump into pvp with so many Cata-changes just a few months away. Thanks again :)