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6-23-2010 @ 7:55PM
"Only 7 seconds." Only?! And against a stunned opponent, you do how much DPS? Let's be conservative and say that a decently-geared rogue will do in the vicinity of, say, 6K. I'm well aware that there are some that do significantly more than that, but let's just play with that. So in "only" 7 seconds, you're going to do around 38K of damage, since you're not going to be able to actually do a full 6K for the entire time. And then, of course, you can Vanish before your victim has an opportunity to retaliate. Which sets up the next series of attacks.At the moment, my shaman in his PVP rig has, unbuffed, a mere 24.5K. You'd need a little over half of your available 7 seconds to kill me. Part of it, of course, is that shamans have been getting crapped on since they were originally nerfed from the near godlike status they had when they were Horde-only... before my time, I'm afraid. We have the worst base health of any class, and the mail armor doesn't really help much.Sorry. I'm not buying for one second the continued commentary about how much Cataclysm is going to nerf your stunlocks. I will wait until I see it for myself, but I'm not holding my breath.
6-23-2010 @ 8:01PM
You are using WotLK values for both DPS and life.Also remember that no rogue can do 6k DPS solo in PvP gear, it takes buffs to get up to that level, and we're already spending energy on CS and KS.In Cataclysm, players will have much more life relative to DPS.
6-23-2010 @ 8:20PM
But chase, Rogues have a lower GCD than pallies. Also, for pallies to get their massive damage going, it takes more than 6 seconds (what will amount to 3 GCD's including the HoJ cooldown) for them to put out that burst.Cheap shot-mutilate-mutilate-kidney shot-vanish-ambush-mutilate-envenom will kill virtually anyone who isn't in super high end resil or tank gear. Of course, a good pvp'er will know to trinket the kidney shot to break the stunlock, but rogues are dirty rotten scoundrels and will just continually sap someone for the lulz until the player gets frustrated and trinkets out of the sap. Or, a newbie pvp'er will trinket that sap and be boned by the combo I just tossed up there.Rogues have insaaaaane burst especially as mut with a couple of good daggers.
6-23-2010 @ 8:22PM
I second Chase's comment.Also Shaman Base Health was increased in a WotLK patch so they didnt have the lowest base heath of any class. (this was after the class Q and As were released.) Hopefully the removal of arp in cataclysm will make mail armour matter more.And shamans dont have to sit there doing nothing, even today. This is PvP, you have that trinket if you need to use it. But As resto you have heals to help you, earthsheild if you have it on yourself. Enhancement can use shamanistic rage, and ele has even greater tools, thunderlol and the 30% less damage taken when stunned spring to mind. I think cata will be lessening stunlocks, and be all the better for it. For both sides, close battles can emerge, over binary 'win/lose' in those few seconds.
6-23-2010 @ 8:27PM
Oh, I would also like to add that my point was also in favor of lessening the stunlock and giving rogues more abilities to defend or attack outside the stunlock. So in that context, I definitely agree with Chase and the other posters.
6-23-2010 @ 8:30PM
Not to mention nature's guardian or whatever the resto talent is that boosts your health when you go below 30%. I'm in pretty midrange pvp gear on my restoman and I rarely die to rogues. It helps that as a healer I'm almos always within range of someone who needs healed. They're usually more than willing to help me out.
6-23-2010 @ 9:26PM
6k dps against someone with 0 resilience maybe. any rogue who can do that against someone who is in 1.2k+ resilience is one bad mofo....
6-23-2010 @ 9:12PM
Guess you don't use Shamanistic Rage when you are stun locked then? And if you trinket fast enough you should be able to get off either wolves or stoneclaw totem (depending on spec, but no shammy should be without glyph of stoneclaw in PvP). All that there will practically double your effective health to closer to 40 or 50k at least if not more. Lately rogues have honestly been the least of my problems, but I am in about 1200 resilience at the moment.
6-24-2010 @ 1:15AM
Pyro your an idiot that rotation requires 260 energy to execute plus blows one of our very few defensive cooldowns. Love to see how you managed to come up with that rotation. Know what your talking about before you post.Lets not forget that rogues are the assasins of WoW. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person. This is how rogue players like to see themselves - not as some leather wearing warrior hybrid but as an assasin. Who said we wanted to stand foot to foot with a warrior clashing daggers with two handed swords? Take out our stuns and you asking us to stand toe to toe with plate wearers - if thats the direction blizzard want rogues then they better give rogues some insane leather gear that has a thin layer of kevlar under it.
6-24-2010 @ 1:55AM
@PyromelterActually the KS would end before the last mutilate and envenom because you'd run out of energy. So during your *retarded* stunlock cycle you did 2 mutilates and 1 Ambush. Against a moderately geared target I'd say you probably did about 8k damage. Bravo. It's actually best to do CS > 1-2 mut > KS > don't waste your vanish > mut > evenom because envenom is going to do more damage than an ambush against most targets. And yes all of that fits in a stunlock.Rogue's "burst" is some of the worst for a pure dps, and it's even pretty bad for most hybrids. Speaking as a rogue who is pretty goddamn geared I can tell you that no one dies in my stunlock unless they are very VERY undergeared OR I had help.
6-24-2010 @ 7:00AM
Your attitude is what bothers me the most about PvP. Face it you are once again looking at PvP as a solo experience instead of a team sport. One thing that has needed to change for a long time in PvP is the solo mentality that many players get into when PvPing in battlegrounds. You are not in this alone, we have an objective, and people need to focus on these objectives instead of trying to solo while bitching about not getting any heals. The reason you don't get heals is because your healer is stun locked and 2 seconds away from an untimely death because you can't focus 5 yards away.
6-24-2010 @ 6:25PM
I hope you weren't talking about *my* attitude. I run my shaman as Ele in BGs, rather than my preferred spec of Resto because my survival was so poor I felt... and *was*... useless. I couldn't get anyone to take a few seconds to make sure I wasn't getting ripped to pieces a few steps behind them. So I opted for ranged DPS to literally give myself a fighting chance, and even that has proven to be slim-to-none.I understand about PVP not being a solo endeavor, but apparently you don't understand precisely how often it becomes that. I actively seek out fire-support positions, and try to team up with others, but at this time, there is literally no incentive at all to most people to go for the actual objective of the BG. All they care about is maximizing their kill totals, and their own personal bonus honor. In Cyclone, at least, the Alliance is hopelessly crippled by this kind of mindset. I've given up trying to urge people to fight at the flags, cap the towers, help the FC... you know the drill.So I agree with you in principle, but those principles don't reduce the stunlocks. And they don't reach to the masses of people who refuse to get better at this portion of the game. So I guess I'll just wait for Cat, and see if this so-called "stunlock nerf" actually materializes, but I've learned not to be too hopeful.
6-28-2010 @ 9:45AM
I'd like to see every moron who QQs endlessly about how OP stunlocks are, and how they die before they can get out of it every time try actually playing a rogue in level 80 pvp. They would quickly realize that while we have a fearsome toolbox, many of our best skills really aren't that difficult to survive against. I learned far more about how to beat rogues on my other characters by playing one.
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