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6-25-2010 @ 7:39PM
i've always been cofused by the cooldowns argument, druids have last stand and a 20% damage reduction and thats it.we have last stand, shield wall, enraged regen, shield block, the 4pt10 bonus if you have it, and numerous stuns and other mitigation methods. why is it everyone says we have the short end of the cooldown stick?
6-25-2010 @ 7:54PM
Last Stand vs. Survival Instincts - both do exactly the same thing, so total wash thereShield Wall vs Barkskin - 5 min/60% vs. 1 min/20% - It's a toss up depending on your tanking preferences but some would say a more frequently available (5 times as available) cooldown is a better one for raid fights today that require frequent tank swapping. Glyphed Shield Wall vs. Barkskin - 3 min/40% vs. 1 min/20% - Closer, but Barkskin is still looking better and it doesn't take a Major Glyph to get there.Glyphed and Talented Shield Wall vs. Barskin - 2 min/40% vs. 1 min/20% - Identical in overall damage reduction, but now you've taken 2 talent points and a Major Glyph to get it that way.Enraged Regen vs. Frenzied Regeneration - Both give 30% health over 10 seconds, but the Druid version costs some raged.. So technically it's inferior but in practice it's virtually identical.Shield Block vs.. well, nothing the Druids have. Maybe Savage Defense + Improved Leader of the Pack. Not exactly cooldowns but self healing and damage-absorption are both two very sweet tools to compensate for a lack of block/block-cooldown.4pt10 BonusDruid - Your Enrage ability no longer decreases your armor and instead decreases all damage taken by 12%, and the periodic damage done by your Rake ability can now be a critical strike.vs.Warrior - Your Bloodrage ability no longer costs health to use, and now causes you to absorb damage equal to 20% of your maximum health. Lasts 0 sec.Both create tanking cooldowns that would be better in different situations. They're basically a wash, depending on the fight.
6-25-2010 @ 8:04PM
Oh, and forgot to mention that Stuns don't work on raid bosses. :) Not sure what other "mitigation tricks" you're referring to..
6-25-2010 @ 10:27PM
well, stuns work on adds, and are invaluable when tanking, say the big adds on lk, especially if you dont have enough hunters to tranq shot them all.
6-26-2010 @ 2:22AM
As long as you're comparing cooldowns, you should point out that Frenzied Regeneration's glyph is far better than Enraged Regeneration; the druid glyph boosts all healing received, while the warrior glyph only buffs the cooldown's heal.
6-26-2010 @ 7:52AM
The thing is you don't wanna take a soul reaper with only barkskin when the Hellscream buff wasn't as powerful, but with a 2-min 40% you could. As a guy who plays both warrior and druid and have tanked and killed Lk on both I'd want druids to have a minor glyph that makes Barkskin equal to the glyphed and talented SW. Of course the warrior glyph should be a minor one too since it only changes the ability, it does't improve it.
6-26-2010 @ 9:07AM
@decoy.oh look, a caster mob.whoops, let me just charge and get aggro on it, now intervene back.oh lets intercept another, shield slam it to put that tasty silence on.and just for the fun of it heroic throw at another.and finally make sure you have spell reflect up.the mobs fear?thats ok we have beserker rage to solve that every 30 seconds.and the druid version is.....make sure lacerate doesnt fall off?get another class to pull it in?warriors cooldowns arent just about damage mitigation. theyre about utility.not every fight is going to have a use for every cooldown.but every cooldown will have a use for a fight.and more importantly every fight will have a useful cooldown.every tank class has their particular special cooldowns, most of them have a better version of the warrior ones.but the most important fact is that warriors have about 80% of the available cooldowns in some form, and alot of them are alot better.sure a dk has anti magic shell., but warriors have spell reflect, every 10 seconds.and that beats the complete absence of abilities that druids and pallies have in that area.ranged silence?heroic throw, every 1 minutepallies have a 3 target ranged silence with a talented avengers.dk's have 1 target with strangulate.bears get nothing.mobility?warriors have THREE cooldowns.THREE! charge everey 15 seconds, intercept on 30, and intervene, which is 30 secs.bears only have their feral charge.pallies only get hand of freedom.dk's get very little to keep themselves from immobilization.interrupts?shield bash 12 seconds.concussion blow. 30 seconds.shockwave, multitarget, 17 seconds.heroic throw, 1 minute.hell im even a tauren so ill chuck in a 2 minute warstomp.that means in a 2 minute time period i can interrupt TWENTY THREE TIMES!thats just stupidly good.dk's get mind freeze, 10 second cd interrupt.pallies would have to change seals to do the same.bears only silence is tied to their stun...on the topic of stuns...shockwave, 4 second frontal cone stun. 17 second cooldown.concussion blow. 30 again.bears get bash. thats it.dks dont get any.pallies can only stun demons and undead, and then only 30 seconds.fear?intimidating shout, 2 minute cooldown 5 target fear.pallies can fear undead and demons, and thats all.getting feared?beserker rage, 30 second cooldown, 10 second duration.bears had an equivilent, last time i checked it was a 51 point talent with a three minute cooldown.noone has disarms?noone has anything like vigilance.noone will be passively keeping up a 20% armour reduction.sure maybe us warriors dont have the newest shiniest set of tools, but we sure as hell have the largest set of them, and im fairly sure they're the most reliable.
6-27-2010 @ 5:08AM
This was a post about tanking cooldowns. I'm not sure what relevance your rant about ranged pulls and class utility has to do with anything.
6-28-2010 @ 6:28AM
Great list of comparisons there Michael. Also dont forget that a bear's only interupt (bash) isnt even off the GCD, so chances are you wont be able to use it in time to interupt that heal/spell before it goes off, unless you stop doing everything just to wait for it.I have a tank of every class, and the bear is by far the saddest most lacking tank when it comes to utility. Bears have to rely on their group for just about every type of control needed to successfully tank. Even the small number of abilities bears do have to support the group/raid (Innervate, combat res) cant be used in form, which means they cant be used, because shifting out of bear for a second = dead. Its like telling a pally he has to drop all his armour and shield just to put Hand of Protection or Divine Sac on someone.I laugh bitterly when warriors complain about aoe tanking and how other tanks have it so much better, because they clearly have never tanked on another class and dont know just how good they have it.
8-07-2010 @ 1:03AM
@ Grak.I've tanked DK, Bear (ok, lowbie bear, but the basic mechanics are still there), and Paladin, and warrior AE tanking isn't worse, it's just more... fiddly. Paladins just drop consec on CD, swinging the hammer of righteousness and keeping HS up, all the same things they do in a single-target situation. DK have to hit a few separate keys, but they've got a pretty decent array of abilities, from DnD, to pestilenced diseases, to blood boil, covering any sort of AE situation. Druids have swipe and glyphed maul, which, while not complicated, are practical and with no CD but the GCD on swipe, entirely spammable.Warriors have the threat, they just need to rotate TC, SW, and talented Revenge, using cleave on melee swings and keeping shield block up and tab-target. The threat is there if you want to fiddle around and do it. The one thing a warrior lacks is something which is less timing-dependent. 6 second TC cooldown means that if you didn't catch a few mobs in that area when you hit the key, they're loose until you single-target hit them down, basically. It works, it's just... fiddly. In the meanwhile, in live, every other tank has some sort of ability designed to prevent timing the ability a little slowly from causing problems. No, simply walking through consec won't make the mob glued to you, but it gets them looking at you first, buys you plenty of time to adjust, same with DnD, and swipe can be hit next GCD.Again, I've made my peace with it (that and our last-place threat from range). Our superior mobility, our stuns, our anti-caster mechanics, and very capable rack of cooldowns make up for slightly fiddly AE methods.
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