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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsCataclysm: Reaching uncrittable
by Gregg Reece 
Jul 2nd 2010 at 9:00AM
All in all, the stat is kinda boring, as while it does still do nice things after you reach the defense cap of 690 rating (or 540 skill), most people don't bother with it and stack stamina or other avoidance. So Blizzard decided that they're going to get rid of it.
Around BlizzCon 2009, we were told that the crit reduction we formerly got from defense rating was going to be tied into things that were available to all members of each tanking class. Examples used were baking it into Bear Form for druids, Righteous Fury for paladins, Defensive Stance for warriors and Frost Presence (or rather, Blood Presence in Cataclysm) for death knights. That means that if a retribution paladin or arms warrior wanted to tank, all he'd need to do was swap to vaguely appropriate gear (or just over to a sword and shield), pop his respective abilities, and away he'd go. That's not how it appears things went down, though.
With the NDA now lifted, we've been able to see what they've decided. At level 40, you can choose to talent into Survival of the Fittest (three points) for druids, Holy Shield (one point) for paladins, Safeguard (two points) for warriors and Improved Blood Presence (two points) for death knights. The reasoning behind this appears to be one of health pools. With the re-itemization in the expansion, non-tanks will have a higher stamina budget all around and incoming damage even if you are critically hit won't one-/two-shot you.
GhostcrawlerQuote:
The thing I'm wondering now is what's the stance on tanking now? Is it ONLY for those who are setup specifically to tank?
The thing I'm wondering now is what's the stance on tanking now? Is it ONLY for those who are setup specifically to tank?
With the higher health pools, a non-Protection / Blood / Feral should be able to tank most non-heroic dungeons. You'll get crit, but the crits won't kill you. In fact, that is more reason to keep crit immunity to the dedicated tanks.
So this means that non-heroic dungeons should still be tankable by non-tank-specced players, leaving heroics to those who have put more dedication into that role.
However, one little discrepancy that I've pointed out but glossed over earlier is still about those talents. In order to be crit-immune, you must be level 40 for a paladin, level 46 for a warrior, level 41 for a death knight (yes, I know they start at 55, but 32 talent points worth in the blood tree), or level 37 for a feral druid. This might cause a small bit of trouble while leveling through Scarlet Monastery and honestly doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things when you're dealing with 76 talent points at level 85.
However, perceived differences are still differences in the community. There have been many flame threads from DPS specs comparing how much hit or threat reduction one class gets compared to another or even how many talent points must be spent to do it. I have a feeling that we're going to see the same complaints coming from the tanking community.
One possible solution to this would be letting the first point convey that 6% crit reduction while the other features of that talent scale appropriately points. This would mean that all four tanks would be able to achieve the same needed ability with the same dedication into the talent tree and thus at the same level for druids, paladins and warriors.
As will be repeated over and over for the coming months, we are still in beta, and all of this could drastically change or be baked into other features of the class. The crit reduction could be changed in some way between now and launch, or we could end up listening to the tanking forum bicker back and forth about it while waiting around for the Deathwing raid in patch 4.3 to drop. For now, the magic 8 ball says, "Reply hazy, try again."
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm will destroy Azeroth as we know it. Nothing will be the same. In WoW.com's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion. From goblins and worgens to mastery and guild changes, it's all there for your cataclysmic enjoyment.Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Death Knight
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Muse Jul 2nd 2010 9:55AM
When Wrath was coming out, the blues said that any class capable of tanking would be able to tank a normal dungeon in their dps spec. So that's what I did. I tanked every single dungeon as a retribution paladin. RF, sword&board plus some defense gear and get to work. Only one person (1) complained, a mage that dropped group in Nexus after throwing a hissy fit. We finished the rest of the instance with four people without wiping.
Tanking is not rocket surgery.
Rhabella Jul 2nd 2010 10:03AM
Sadly, I think you are a little misinformed. Back in TBC, I healed every regular 5 man while leveling with a balance spec. Now, with the way we overgear content, my paladin throws on his tanking gear, except for a big 2 hander, and tanks in his ret spec. I’m still rocking 40K+ hp and there are no problems even in a heroic because I’m at the 535 mark for crit immunity.
There was a time, believe it or not, when instances were harder and people didn’t require tanks to sport some ungodly amount of HP just to tank an easy 5 man like HUK is today.
I will agree there is an opportunity for bad players to exploit the system, but the DPS who require a healer in ICC hear, and healer who expects his 5 man tank to have 50+k hp, or a tank who’s as a-hole because his DPS “only” does about 2k is the problem, not players who can actually perform their jobs in unique specs, and working within the parameters of a regular 5 man instance should include such liberty, after all dual specs didn’t hit until 3.1 if I remember correctly.
Samutz Jul 2nd 2010 10:03AM
5 levels that require much more exp and thus take much longer than any 5 levels between 70 and 80. If you're the type that uses the dungeon finder while leveling, like me, then you'll be using it plenty before hitting 85.
On top of this, I currently have 5 80s, and may have a 6th 80 before Cataclysm's release, and I plan to level them all to 85. That'll be a lot of dungeon running.
Plus I'm sure there will be DPSers that try to tank heroics anyway, if tanking the normals does prove to be viable for them.
Jorges Jul 2nd 2010 10:46AM
This is exactly what I saw and why I don't like it. DPS classes shouldn't be able to tank any instance, neither hybrids unless properly specced. This takes the job from the tank, and makes instances a potential chaos. We'll see dps classes, specially the high damage ones who can't/don't know how/won't control their aggro, going all out because they know that they won't die.
Maybe the vengeance style tanking and the more CC oriented instances won't allow this kind of behaviour. But I'm sure there's going to be the hunter (or any dps class) that thinks he can tank the whole instance.
Brian Jul 2nd 2010 12:20PM
Just as a reminder to everyone crying about this and saying "I'm gonna level to 85 in the DF from the start" you won't be able to actually queue for a 80-85 dungeon in Cata until you've found the instance in the world from what I saw last.
This may have changed since it was posted on the Cata forums, but that was their last statement on it.
Agerath Jul 2nd 2010 12:50PM
I'm also sick of the trend this expansion started, in that DPS don't have to watch their threat at all.
In BC, if you pulled aggro off the tank, you were going to die VERY quickly, even if you were a plate class.
In this expansion, even my boomkin can pull two or three mobs off the tank and survive pretty easily.
It just encourages laziness, especially since we don't have any CC and we're relegated to 'durr hurr gather and AoE'
Cyanea Jul 2nd 2010 1:25PM
Oh sweet jesus, no.
No no no no no. I'm a healer, and I BEG you not to put me through this.
Dril Jul 2nd 2010 2:02PM
@Rhabella: It's all well and good that it's "only" for levelling, but after that what if people continue with the mindset that "mai class can tank normals, i r can tank everyting else! inv to pug raid pl0x!"? Sure, if they read stuff on the internet they'll find out that they shouldn't be tanking, but I'd rather not take the chance that someone is a clueless imbecile but they're allowed to do stuff anyway because "my friend is RL." Imo they should get it into their heads from day one that tanking is for tanks, healing is for healers, and dpsing/CCing is for everyone else.
I can't help but think that there really is no direction in this expansion as well. I love it already, but there's things that just, to me at least, seem not to work:
1) There were talks about CCing being required and healing being more mana-intensive and tactical, yet people who have never tanked before are saying what should be CCed and pulling according to it, whilst having a healer make up for their spec deficiency despite already more mana issues. Eh?
2) Linking on from healing, apparently we have the option to deeps as well now. Hang on, I thought we would have to plan our heals carefully so we don't run out of mana, and now we're expected to waste some of it doing crap damage anyway? Something doesn't fit.
Right. Went massively off-topic but hey. I like what I wrote :P
cielago Jul 2nd 2010 3:25PM
At drill, spec really doesn't matter in early dungeons, also i doubt many people will research to start tanking rfc or wc, most people learn how to play by doing.
It will be a LOT faster to get a tank and healer (and thus a group) if dps with tanking capabilities joint hew queue, it won't be an optimal set up, but it wll be doable, even if you get the noob first time tank it will be faster to teach him tanking 101 than kicking him and looking for a replacement and that will also have the added benefit of adding one more capable tank to the player base.
Hih Jul 2nd 2010 5:38PM
@Dril: I too like to wait 30 minutes or more while on my dps alts trying to do a lower level dungeon while leveling up.
Luci Jul 2nd 2010 9:12AM
I don't think I like non-tanks being able to... um... tank? That further fuels the homogenization debate. Especially with the ease of assembling a group with the new dungeon finder system, there aren't these situations where you are LFG in SW for two hours for a tank for Uldaman, so if they were going to do something like that it should have been the kind of thing that was IN then and is going OUT now, not the other way around.
As to the uncrittable thing, I'm not sure how I feel about all this gear homogenization. Pros and cons....
I'm sure they will keep this in mind, but I can see all of this presenting a lot of PvP balancing issues, across all levels.
Eskarel Jul 3rd 2010 4:50AM
Ok, let's be a bit realistic here. I've tanked on as a warrior and as a pally. Not in raids since my schedule doesn't allow that, but I have a clue.
First off, normals are always different very few tanks in normals now are crit immune unless they're doing runs for a friend or boredom you just can't get there without a lot of rep gear and dungeon drops. Generally it doesn't matter since they are roughly your level anyway.
Second, it will not put non tanks in heroics, it will in fact make heroics easier since as a healer you will be able to do a five second inspect to see If you should leave or kick the tank instead of trying to do maths to find out if your tank is uncrittable. Trust me when I say no sane healer will even try a heroic with a crittable tank.
Third, this isn't really about homogenization, it was for Druids since Blizzard didn't want to keep making tanking leather for one spec, but I would say it's a safe bet that tanks will still gear for stamina, mitigation, and avoidance more than dps so there will still be tank gear and non tank gear, excluding Druids just like now.
Having played the defense cap shuffle holding on to crappy gear just so I can even consider running heroics, this is one of the catalog changes I'm most excited about. I've played healers, dps, and tanks and no other role has a stat like defense. Hit is important, but you wouldn't keep a level 80 blue over an tier 10 to keep you at hit cap. If it kept you over the defense cap as a tank you would. Defense sucks and I'll be glad to see the back of it.
prenden2 Jul 2nd 2010 9:18AM
I guess this means that my beloved Frost DK will still be able to tank in some capacity, woot!
PistolPeet Jul 2nd 2010 9:18AM
"This might cause a small bit of trouble while leveling through Scarlet Monastery and honestly doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things when you're dealing with 76 talent points at level 85."
This will cause no trouble while levelling. How many level 30-35 tanks are def-capped? Does anyone even know (without looking it up) what the def-cap for those levels actually is? While levelling as a tank you're lucky if you even have a couple of items with +def on them because of how the "pick one of these 3 oddly itemised quest rewards" system even works. Non-critability only ever matters at end-game.
Luci Jul 2nd 2010 9:26AM
Since you can't dual-spec til 40 most tanks prior to that are really DPS spec anyway, so I don't see it being a problem up til 40 definitely. My fiance and I are leveling a priest+warrior combo now and he is Arms and I hardly have to heal him. Heirlooms and skill help of course though obviously.
As to the gear itemization Cataclysm is supposed to restructure the stats on low level gear. So maybe we will see some lowbie tanking gear.
I think most of us who tank frequently are just offended by the "now everybody can tank!!" aspect of it. Though it may ease things up at lower levels, the dungeon finder has already made it easy enough. It's like Barney being easier than Sesame Street. No one can argue that more tanks is good for all the DPS waiting in the queue, but SHOULD it be done is the issue. It kinda cheapens tanking IMO.
Colin Jul 2nd 2010 9:28AM
The only problem I see is that the same (insane) people who kick based on the gearscore and dps of level 40s (LFM SM, need 300 dps and 200gs min) might decide that a warrior can't tank because he's not lvl 46 and has no crit immune talents, unlike the other tanks.
I don't see it being a huge problem, but you never know with the wonderful WoW community.
Goradan Jul 2nd 2010 9:28AM
Yep.
I think I "tanked" on my warrior a lot when leveling up and until Outland I didn't give two looks at the gear I was getting. I'm tanking? Great, let me grab my shield and sword.
Even the right def. spec isn't THAT necessary until you're past 40. I've healed low level dungeons that were tanked by a pet.
Tanking doesn't get complicated until you're in, idunno, BRD maybe. And with more stamina coming on gear in Cata, it'll be even easier.
Luci Jul 2nd 2010 9:34AM
@Goradon
True on the pet thing til BRD! If the tank left or sucked or something I would frequently tank with my little scorpion on my BM hunter. BRD is pretty much the stopping point though.
Arms and Feral are decent enough specs to tank in a tight spot. Fury and Ret not so much. The only thing that gives Ret any cred for tanking is just the sheer OPness of pallies at lower levels. My pally is only 52 atm, but I haven't found much I can't do on her.
PistolPeet Jul 2nd 2010 9:41AM
@Luci: Oh I agree completely, whether we WANT these people tanking is an entirely different matter :)
wholehole Jul 2nd 2010 9:19AM
Plate-wearing dps won't be able to tank anything that's srs bsns anyway (the HC's will have to be left to the proper tanks after all). It'll just mean more tanks to go round for the large amount of dps looking to do dungeon quest while levelling.
And as for the differing crit-immunity for the different classes, horses for courses. All classes have pro's and con's. If that one talent is that important to you, you can always switch class :)