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7-15-2010 @ 11:05AM
What is the point of hit and/or expertise? Not what’s the point in the general sense, but what is the point in having hit caps so high and then providing talents that increase hit for you.I thought a lot of this might be going away with the new talent trees, but after reviewing the specialization bonuses, I am curious why they would even set the hit cap where it is. Why not just lower the bosses ability to be missed and call it a day. If casters x needs 17% hit and caster y needs 14% hit but they both have talents to reduce the miss chance by 3% why not just get rid of that “fake” hit chance?Same goes for expertise. I think, though unsure, that every melee spec had expertise bonuses except the ret paladin. Why not just roll back the expertise needed and reduce the need for talents/new specializations giving the expertise.As and example…From last nights announcement, each of the 3 lock trees have a hit bonus as do the 3 hunter trees. What’s the point in requiring a lock to have x amount of hit if they get a hit reduction but have to share gear with mages who will need more hit? Eventually that hit gets wasted. Probably not the clearest question, but I hope it makes some sense.
7-15-2010 @ 11:17AM
you should read the full article here http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hitevery caster requires the same amount of hit to never miss with their spells. there's no difference between classes in that regard. talents will essentially give you extra hit, making it so you need less on your gear. the reason those talents are there though are in case you want to push your hit rating high enough with your gear to never miss and then put those points elsewhere in your talent trees.
7-15-2010 @ 11:37AM
Hey! What ever happened to Rhabells's rants? I miss it.
7-15-2010 @ 12:16PM
@tatsumasaI get what you are saying, but those hit talents also perform double duty. Meaning they actually do something in addition to increasing hit. It can be inferred, at least on some level, the talents are intended to be taken because of this. Remember the devs aren’t really big fans of alternative builds because every time one pops up, the talents almost always get “adjusted.” Look at touched by the light early in Wrath.My guess has always been back before misses were able to be completely removed from the table, it was a way of balancing but, like separate but equal, it was determined to be inherently unequal because say an arcane mage pumping out an arcane blast with its brutally long cast time was considered more punishing than an corruption with its instant cast and loss of a GCD. Now that misses can be completely avoided, everyone should be working on the same playing fiels if you believe that classes of equal gear and skill should pump out roughly equal DPS. Unlike vanilla, or even tBC where classes were, obviously, balanced around some misses, that is no longer the case.Why should a lock be “punished” with the need for additional hit on gear when the mage can take the passive hit and then boost his spelllpower instead? This is just an example, I know it applies to other classes or even specs within a class.The other thing to remember is loot tables. In the Cataclysmic world of tier scaling hit, there is a chance there will be an arms race for gear, more so than now, where classes will have to evaluate 2 pieces of gear, and get them both because in the current tier, you would not need the hit, but on patch day, you better be ready to raid with the new hit requirements. I’m not opposed to gear decisions like this, but it does make for some interesting bidding choices when a piece drops.@johnthediverThe quick answer is ADD. Too many topics, including WoW, for me to stick to such a subject focused blog.
That's a good question. I guess it is just to lower the DPS of healers? I agree it does not make much sense to keep it at this point.
7-15-2010 @ 12:44PM
if you look at the table under "Increasing spell hit" you'll notice that all caster classes have a talent that increases their hit, including warlocks. they are also on the top tiers so you don't have to spec far into a tree you don't want to, except for classes that would be specing far into a tree anyway (balance druids for example.)that's an interesting theory about overall damage output taking misses into account in order to balance class dps. i've never heard that before. since blizzard makes the hit-cap known, and gives us enough of it on gear, AND allows us to make up some of it with talents, i think they're just assuming people are hit-capped when trying to do their dps balancing act. as someone with five 80s, i haven't found it any more or less difficult to reach the hit cap on any class.
7-15-2010 @ 12:45PM
You don't think that Blizzard doesn't know that different classes have different hit caps, and perhaps have balanced around that? A Fire Mage can bust out the same, or higher, DPS as an Arcane Mage, and he has to gear all the way to the hard cap without hit talents. This is because his spells scale faster than Arcane Mages with buffs and what little spellpower, crit, and haste is left over. Therefore, a filthy warlock with his hit talents would be able to match an Arcane Mage because his spells scale better than the Arcane mage. A Fire Mage would theoretically scale even better if it weren't for the need to worry about the hit cap.
7-15-2010 @ 12:50PM
The point of hit basically that blizzard doesn't want people at level, say, 35, being able to take down mobs at level 50 for huge XP bonuses. They extrapolated this to raid bosses to have an "interesting" stat for dps'ers, and yes, to also nerf healer dps.Expertise, on the other hand, makes no sense to me. Hit allows you to hit something with more success... and expertise also allows you to hit something with more success. Redundant, confusing, and stupid. Also, there's nothing in-game that shows you what these things are (nothing that I know of). The only way to know what hit/expertise caps are is to look on websites outside the game. They should seriously just get rid of expertise, or somehow roll expertise into hit.
7-15-2010 @ 1:14PM
@tatsumasa,"i haven't found it any more or less difficult to reach the hit cap on any class"Me either, but I do keep a notepad on the desk with a list of the hit caps for all my casters.@Sunaseni,I absolutely believe that, but in a raid where the devs themselves have said they feel like they have cluttered loot tables, even though they are happier with them now than they were in tiers prior to Wrath, this balancing hit (that is different hit for different classes, not the need for hit) for different classes seems a little contrary to a design goal of so many specs sharing gear.
7-15-2010 @ 2:50PM
What gets me is that yes, locks have a hit talent.... but it's only in one tree. When Wrath hit we hada similar talent in the destro tree, but it was removed after one tier (never heard why). There's sub-par destro builds and absolutely awful demo builds that pick up the hit talent, but you shouldn't have to sacrifice useful or interesting talents simply to pick up hit.What is particularly galling is the amount of hit an arcane mage needs, especially with raid support. Basically half their required amount of hit can be either talented or supported away, which makes a huge difference in their itemization priorities.In an unrelated topic, when is the Horde going to get a nice 1% hit buff like the Draenei have been rocking for two expansions?
7-15-2010 @ 7:38PM
What is the point of haste, crit and spirit? Not what’s the point in the general sense, but what is the point in having different stats that different classes want more of?I thought a lot of this might be going away with the new talent trees, but after reviewing the specialization bonuses, I am curious why they would even need stats. Why not just have everything scale of intellect and call it a day. If casters x needs 17% haste and caster y needs 14% haste but they both have gear with +int on it why not just get rid of haste altogether?Same goes for melee. I think, though unsure, that every melee spec has gear with Agility except the ret paladin. Why not just roll back the stats on gear needed and reduce any variety, gearing decisions or difficulty in the game.As and example…From last nights announcement, each of the 3 spriest trees gain a lot from haste as do the 3 hunter trees. What’s the point in requiring a spriest to stack x amount of haste if they get more benefit but have to share gear with mages who will need more SP (intellect)? Eventually that haste gets wasted. Probably not the clearest question, but I hope it makes some sense.
7-15-2010 @ 10:33PM
@scherbaddie,That would be hilarious if gearing wasn't already dumbed down already. All you have to do now is hit up EJ, and learn to gem with x gem for your class and spec and ignore socket bonuses after you reach the hit cap.Is that your idea of a sophisticated system? If hit was added any real depth to the game, I would understand your snarkiness, but it doesn't. In fact, I tend to agree with you. If the game was set up as reaching a hit cap for any specific tier of raiding and then you were required to choose between spellpower, haste, crit, or spirit, then again, your feeble attempt at humor would have been much more successful. Instead we are left to gem with one gem for all sockets. On second thought, you're right, that's is such a complex system.
7-15-2010 @ 11:46PM
If your point is that all caster dps have a 3% increase to hit from talents (boomkin have 4%), and thus PvE spell hit should be brought in line with PvP spell hit (87% chance to hit players 3 levels higher, vs. the 83% chance to hit a raid boss currently), then I can see your point but it's a question of balance. A removal of these talent and flat out increase of 3-4% spell hit to every class vs. a raid boss will affect other classes that didn't have these talents but still use spell hit chance (Rogues and Death Knights for example. Hunters? Enhance Shaman?) and they will have to be balanced. Same thing for healing specs & tank taunts (which is actually a good change but can be fixed in other ways). I don't know if casters ever take these talents in pvp, as 4% is not that hard to get from gear, but it could be a nerf to caster pvp too.If your point is that is that people all gem for one stat blindly according to their spec/class, what other system do you propose? If I had the option to customise my gear (gems) I would use it to add more of whatever stat benefited me the most. I only really have experience with Rogues, but depending on gear/spec you could be gemming for any one of 5 stats (including hit past the soft-caps), and socket bonuses (mostly) matter. I beleive other classes can have haste soft-caps where it is beneficial to gem haste to a point & then some other stat. Lets not even start on ArPen (r.i.p). Having said that, the dps difference between certain gems is minor and as long as you're using epic gems: yes, you can usually get away with copying EJ.Will your proposal really fix this problem? It would just lower the hit caps for casters, who would then still gem to the cap and then head off to EJ.Reforging should bring some complexity/flexibility wrt gearing, min/maxing and hitting the caps without waste and I'm looking forward to it.
7-16-2010 @ 10:24AM
@scherbaddie,“If your point is that all caster dps have a 3% increase to hit from talents (boomkin have 4%)”This! If all casters have a 3% chance, why not bake it into their class and then allow boomkin to spec for the additional 1% by adding it on to one of the new reduced “fun talents.” It’s something they expect you to take anyway, so it might as well me available.“If your point is that is that people all gem for one stat blindly according to their spec/class, what other system do you propose? Reforging should bring some complexity/flexibility wrt gearing, min/maxing and hitting the caps without waste and I'm looking forward to it.”There really isn’t any proposition, it was more a design question, but it does hit on the bigger question. Yes, you can have variety in how you gear, but not doing so based on the most proven theorycrafting leaves you with a minor DPS loss here, a tiny survivability loss there, and a possible OOM result over in your healing corner. Reforging is a great idea, and one I am looking most forward to if only because hit can often be so overbudgeted on a new piece of gear. Outside of changing your hit to some other stat, or maybe some crit to haste to get over that next hump for a full tick, is it really offering as much variety as both you and I expect? I can say I hope so, but it just may not be the case especially when the devs themselves have said itemization in Wrath is out of whack for various reasons. You may not see a hunter with 60% crit who could use the reforging for another stat, or an arcane make who really wants to get his arcane blast down another tenth of a second because the ratings are going to be so unforgiving point for point.Like I said before, I don’t think we disagree, I was just curious is others were seeing some of stat budgeting as a deficiency in a relatively complex system because they have been dumbed down to gear and/or gem for stat y.
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