Sub-speccing for PvP in the current Cataclysm beta, Part 2

The good stuff is in the second tier, though ... like Arcane Potency to make sense of Arcane Concentration. But the talent that seems to jump out as truly PvP-oriented is Arcane Repulsion, an awesome talent that gives mage armor a knockback effect and another line of defense against hurtful melee. Despite Zahrym's statement that they would like to make the difference feel "less extreme" between PvP and PvE builds, lessening the instance of having two specs for two different aspects of the game, Arcane Repulsion is very much a PvP talent with almost no use in dungeons or raids. Likewise, Improved Blink on the same tier has been reworked to feel much more like a PvP talent with its bonus to mobility.
The fire tree's top-tier talents aren't all too interesting at this point, although there's Improved Fire Blast, which should work nicely with the very PvP-oriented Impact on the second tier. The frost tree isn't all that better, with most of the talents in the first and second tiers complementing frost spells, such as Frostbite and the extremely cool (literally and figuratively) Permafrost. Overall, the arcane tree seems to have the most PvP-oriented talents in the upper tiers for now.
Paladin Ghostcrawler has already said that "the paladin trees are the most changed in the game" and that "there are only a few of the current beta talents that survived the, um, cleansing," which means that we can pretty much disregard the current trees. In fact, during the recently concluded Twitter developer chat, the developers revealed a new paladin resource called holy power, which is sort of like soul shards meets combo points meets runic power. So a whole lot will change.
That said, I'm going to take a look at some of the talents they've reworked that look as though they might continue in that direction. On the second tier of holy, the developers redesigned Unyielding Faith to reduce the casting time of the paladin's next spell by 100% after coming off a fear or disorient effect. It's a promising idea that I hope will make it out of beta (or even this next build).
Most of protection changes are just talents moved around, but the renamed Blessing of Sanctuary -- now Sanctuary -- looks interesting. None of this feels solid, though, and we'll probably see a lot of changes in the coming weeks. Retribution is pretty much the same, but I'd like to point out that the Eye for an Eye redesign seems far more interesting than the any iteration of the talent we've ever seen. Blizzard will probably scrap it altogether given the state of development, but it's definitely a promising train of thought. There's always been the concern that Blizzard still doesn't quite know where to take the paladin class even after five years, but we'll see.
Priest The priest trees aren't done, but they've got a good bunch of new talents all around, such as Evangelism on the second tier of discipline and its companion talent Archangel. Because Evangelism procs through Smite, it's not quite intended for healers but has good PvP applications on top of helping the leveling process for discipline priests. There's nothing too interesting in the holy tree for other specs to pick up in the current build, and almost all the talents with the exception of Inspiration are passive bonuses, so those are likely to change. Likewise, there aren't any talents in the shadow tree that seem complementary to the other trees at the moment, although some good PvP talents are in there such as Improved Mind Blast and perhaps Spirit Tap.
Rogue Although the assassination tree was singled out among the rogue trees as being "far from done," it has a few new interesting talents such as Deadly Momentum and Blackjack. Blackjack should make Sap a strategic part of PvP and gives rogues the real option of using Sap in the middle of an encounter. The combat tree has Improved Recuperate, improving on the new ability Recuperate, which promises to be frequently used in PvP. Improved Kick and Improved Sprint -- both useful PvP talents -- were moved up to the second tier, while the rest are passive talents that might be changed. The only notable thing in the subtlety tree is the move of Waylay from the eighth tier to the second, although the prerequisite Improved Ambush is a disincentive. More changes headed towards rogue trees for sure, though.
Shaman The shaman trees have some cool new toys, although the elemental tree is mostly a reshuffling affair. It's quite likely that we'll see more changes and less passive bonuses here -- I'm fairly certain Improved Fire Nova doesn't quite fit the developers' idea of palpable talents -- so we'll give the elemental tree a pass. In the enhancement tree, there's the new but otherwise unexciting Focused Strikes that other trees will probably skip. On the second tier is Ancestral Swiftness, which grants a passive bonus to movement speed making it a great choice for PvP.
The restoration tree has Ancestral Resolve on the first tier, another passive talent but should appeal to elemental shaman in PvP. There's also Spark of Life, which is sort of like an improved version of paladin Divinity. Finally there's Focused Insight, another new spell that has a more dynamic feel to it by working through a proc. It also appeals to both enhancement and elemental shaman because it procs off shock spells. Restoration shaman can use it to mix things up by tossing a shock before healing an ally. Very nice talents for shaman so far, it will be good to see what changes take effect in later builds, especially for elemental.
Warlock The warlock trees feel very unfinished at this point, with most of the talents just shuffled around. Nothing too interesting in all the trees, which have old, passive talents which are very likely to change as the beta moves forward. I will note, however, that Blizzard seems to be continuing the trend of allowing Soul Link to be easily accessible to all builds with its move up to the second tier. It seems like they really want warlocks to have it by default, anyway, and the developers acknowledged considering making the ability baseline. Demonic Embrace is a prerequisite now, but that passive, unexciting talent is likely to be changed. There isn't much to see here yet, so we'll move along.
Warrior Warriors, on the other hand, have a bunch of new if unfinished talents such as War Academy on the first tier of arms. It still reeks of passive, impalpable bonuses, so that might change. Right alongside it, though, is Field Dressing, which is not only an awesome ability for PvP, but it also references first aid and bandages (check out that icon!), which is a fun bonus. On the second tier is Blitz, a very cool talent which improves the already awesome Charge. More rage? Check. Stun an additional target? Check. Will probably be picked up for PvP builds? Check.
The other two trees don't have much yet aside from moved talents. I'll point out that Blood Craze in the fury tree has been moved one tier up, allowing warriors to pick up a self-healing talent, perhaps in conjunction with Field Dressing. Protection also doesn't seem to invite branching out into, as most talents here seem fully geared towards improving the protection spec and playstyle. Even the new first-tier talent Hold the Line works best for protection. Some good abilities here, but expect to see a lot more shuffling in future builds of the beta.
A long way from done
It's still too early in the beta to map out builds, but limiting our view to the first two tiers should give us an idea of what Blizzard will allow. Expect more talents that affect spells found exclusively in other trees to populate the first two tiers of talent trees. Although the developers are adamant about keeping players majorly in one spec and killing hybrid, cherry-picking builds, they seem to encourage picking complementary talents from the other two trees. It also gives us an insight as to what kind of playstyle they expect from classes or specs.
Limiting the choices to about 10 deep per secondary tree allows the developers to limit what kind of spells will be available to each spec. As mentioned, this reduces a lot of the guesswork involved in predicting the PvP landscape. Furthermore, developers can more easily sway players to pick up certain talents because they're so easily accessible, such as Soul Link for PvP warlocks. The talent tree lock-out makes it easier for new players to work through their talent choices, and having a mere 10 points for complementary talents makes it easier to round out their builds once the other trees become available. This change impacts PvP min-maxers the most, but players will still have two tiers of talents in other trees to choose from. We'll learn more as the talents get finalized as the beta progresses, and I'm pretty certain players will be able to pick out the most optimal (or imbalanced) PvP talents from other trees. The only difference is that this time around, Blizzard will be expecting it.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Solanti Jul 17th 2010 12:21PM
"Blackjack should make Sap a strategic part of PvP and gives rogues the real option of using Sap in the middle of an encounter. "
Sap can only be used on a target which is not in combat i.e. not in the middle of an encounter...
Skyhoof Jul 17th 2010 12:57PM
Which is why he suggested them change that.
ramiro velasco Jul 17th 2010 1:00PM
There's many ways to implement sap into an arena fight by making the target go 6 seconds without doing anything.
My favorite being Psychic Scream > Vanish > sap :)
Trevor Jul 17th 2010 1:03PM
In an Arena situation lets say you are doing 2v2 and your priest fears a target, by the time those 10seconds are up, the target is normally out of combat so the rogue can easily vanish and sap and go back to their kill target
Durante Jul 17th 2010 1:34PM
"There's also Pathfinding on the second tier, which grants mobility bonuses and should come in handy for group movement in the battlegrounds."
Hunters have had that talent for a long long time and its never really been useful at all for anything.
Zach Jul 17th 2010 1:46PM
This is true. However, rated battlegrounds just might make this talent more attractive. It's very similar to the new Druid ability Stampeding Roar. the daze effect is a terrible drawback, but it can make a difference after creating some distance. I don't think it's a must-have talent ... I just think group movement aura-type spells are more valuable in the new battleground environment.
thebitterfig Jul 17th 2010 1:05PM
hrm. i think what i don't like about the "31 points before you can subspec" thing is that it means subspecs can only happen really late in the game. there are a whole lot of talents which are handy for leveling, or for pvp for that matter, which would be nice to pick up later... something like a cap on subspec points at 1/3 of your main spec would keep the same basic effect, but it'd allow a lot more flexibility at low levels.
Lurile Jul 17th 2010 11:25PM
I think a big problem is something veteran players are seeing as they level new toons- that newbies don't understand talents right off the bat. Especially with the new system making points fewer and farther in between, lowbies will have to buy respecs if they invest points in other specs if they don't know what they're doing, because around level 70 when all their friends are getting that 31st point, they're still only on the 21st, and that's going to hurt them and their groups. The problem I personally have with limiting the specs is what was detailed as "breaking specs" and going for talents in two trees without wanting to be both specs. I don't know, it would hurt the specialization system which is turning out to be great for SV hunters because it introduces the core of their rotation but I digress; specialization needs this cap, although it's going to make mutilate builds very different.
thebitterfig Jul 18th 2010 1:28AM
i guess i somewhat sympathise. but there will still be people who make a bunch of mistakes with specs. ever see anyone in a pug with one of those mythical 71 point specs which still manage to miss key talents? i have, and there will still be a lot of people who'll make similar mistakes, despite the fact that there are a lot fewer talents to pick from. combine that with the fact that in most cases, the 11/21/31 point talents, while very good, aren't utterly gamechanging. some are, like chimera shot, but by and large the major game-changers are now level 10 perks. and add in that even if blizzard automatically gave people the "right" spec, there would still be players who'd make mistakes in how they play with it.
instead, this just severely limits the frankly very large number of players who would love to dip into another tree for two points in a useful talent, just grab spirit tap for leveling, or butchery, or furor, or deadly momentum, or improved soul drain, or so on, so forth. how does it help us that we can't do that anymore?
and it does bug me that hybrid specs are dead and gone. maybe i'm overly romantic about them. i barely used them in practice, i dabbled once into an unrelenting assault/revenge spam tank spec, leveled as a smite priest for fun (and it was a pretty solid leveling spec), and went for 11 deep in balance for mana efficiency and dot extension on this druid healer i had.
but the more i think about it, it just doesn't seem like they are really ADDING anything to the game by preventing the choice. that i can think of, the only really interesting or practical hybrid builds of the expansion were the 0/40/30+1 and such warlock specs, and half their potency was their simplicity. however, the thought of tinkering, of a FFB spec which skipped the deep part of fire in exchange for Torment the Weak and truly becoming a 1-button spec, or of a shadow-bolt spamming mostly destro lock with Master Demonologist and a Succubus, or a mostly tanky warrior who goes about half into fury for blood thirst for soloing old content. all that is going away, and i don't really see any gain. sure, someone won't be able to bungle a spec quite as badly, but let's be honest: anyone who's going to seriously bungle a spec is going to seriously bungle their rotations anyhow, and it won't matter that their locked into a less-bad path.
on the other hand, in live, talent trees are designed well enough that except for rogue pvp, almost no one goes major hybrid spec, since they don't work as well. good design says that it's best to give people the choice, but also give them reasons to make the choice you want them to. and you know what, we do in live, and we will in cata. or we would have, if we'd been given the choice. i look around, at both the old versions of the cata beta trees with 51st point talents, and the newer 31 pointers, and i don't see many hybrid specs i'd want to build. you could get a disc/holy priest designed to spam holy nova with 50%+ crit rating for divine aegis bubbles, or a revealing-strike based HaT build for even more potent eviscerates, but honestly? the trees are well enough designed that we'd almost surely be going 31 points deep in any of them anyhow.
the more i think about it, the more it bugs me...
Kakistocracy Jul 18th 2010 12:45PM
The other thing about saying that hybrid specs where sneaky attempts by those darned players to mess up the game, is that that isn't really consistent with the fact that blizzard created the frostfire spec for mages. Admittedly, they killed it through neglect reasonably quickly, but for a while it was pitched pretty hard.
Matt Jul 17th 2010 2:39PM
"In the feral tree, the developers pulled up the awesome Predatory Strikes from the fourth tier to the first tier in what seems to suspiciously be an attempt to get other specs to pick it up"
Unlikely IMO.
I think it is more of a leveling talent. You cannot make use of the talent except in cat form, and to reliably proc the insta-cast, you have to have 4-5 CPs... hard to get as resto/balance w/out the 2pt/crit talent.
Also balance druid or a resto druid really have no business, being in cat form. There is no extra survivability there (as there is in bear), and they don't have feral charge as it is too far down to grab. The only benefit I can see is the sprint, but then, they also have travel form...
However, it would be GREAT for leveling and add some survivability to cat pvp in early levels.
Lemons Jul 17th 2010 4:10PM
He forgot to mention one of the biggest rogue changes, which is that Quickening (or Fleet Footed 2.0) is now on the 2nd tier of Assassination, meaning any spec can easily access it now.
Melchior Jul 17th 2010 5:13PM
RIP Mut/Prep.
Darasen Jul 17th 2010 5:16PM
I am sorry is the article basicaly saying that the reason for sub specs going away is for PvP reasons?
Darasen Jul 17th 2010 5:17PM
*basically
Pluv Jul 17th 2010 7:34PM
I am not sure if this was said or not but will you be able to go into both trees like now once you unlock or will be be says Restoration main and enhancement sub or say 3/7/31
nutzj98 Jul 17th 2010 7:52PM
This was a subject for thought while blogging this morning. What I worry about is balance early on in BG's. I'm not into twinking but those guys will face some issues too. It's pretty clear that some classes can use one tree and make very viable PVP specs. While others will trail behind to an extent of not wanting to run BG's until the 40's or higher. I know Blizz focuses much on end game but BG's are a viable way to level now. I really hope they at least look at areas which might discourage new players from participating in PVP because of an early experience.
- ispeakwow @ blogspot
TonyM Jul 18th 2010 7:01AM
actually Holy shock, spec seems alive and well still...
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#sGccskrMuRz0bZbhh
And as the talent trees get closer to shipping, im sure they will make it even easier to subspec, certain things people deem aboslutley vital.
TonyM Jul 18th 2010 7:05AM
Remeber all pallies get crusader strike, so if you really wann be a shockadin, you can use your nomal holy gear (with mainly crit ) and a slow strength base one hander for crusader strike. Wont be very competetive damage, but the whole point of a shockadin is a 1v1 unstoppable force.
jcompguy Jul 18th 2010 9:03AM
I'm glad they decided to consolidate and revamp the talent system. IMO it has always been one of WoW's biggest flaws.
First off, it's confusing and nearly impossible for a new player to properly spec their class, and has gotten worse every expansion. Second, you only have the illusion of choice, when you really just have the potential to pick a sub-optimal build (of course I'm talking about being a unique snowflake, not choosing a different tree). Finally, I also like the idea of being "forced" to put the majority of your points into a main tree. While it may take away the option to do funky stuff with your spec, it enforces the idea that you are speccing into a talent tree because you ARE that spec.
As long as Blizz puts worthwhile talents into the different trees that make you only want to spec into that tree anyway, then it's a good design decision. Hypothetically a dps character shouldn't want to spec deep into a healing tree for a good damage dealing or survival talent. This is especially true for PvP due to the many possible class combinations and ingenuity of the playerbase. The old protholy paladin abominations and ridiculous fan of knive specced rogues are good examples of talents gone wrong.
I agree with Blizzard on this one. Players should be able to choose one of the three specs, not create their own unintended one.