Nonstandard loot systems in WoW, page 2

Although I would like to present these loot systems in an objective method, I cannot help but mention that this is perhaps the most ingenious loot system that I've come across in my days of playing WoW. Ni Karma, or the Ni Karma System (NKS), was developed by one of the many guilds named Knights Who Say Ni and is a pseudo-zero-sum DKP system that operates on, as the name implies, karma. NKS should not be confused with a DKP system, however, because even though players accrue karma points as they might DKP points, you cannot explicitly spend karma in order to gain an item. Instead, NKS is more akin to an open roll system in which players may adjust their rolls through the usage of karma -- essentially adding in the equality nature that is missing from a straight open roll system.
Within NKS, karma is awarded to players for various things that are dependent upon the guild, as you might gain DKP. Karma may be awarded for showing up on time, killing bosses, time spent within a raid, work on a progression kill or whatever other variables a guild may choose to use. Once an item drops, it is then placed up for bid within an open roll system. Before rolling, each player is given three options: pass, roll without karma or roll with karma. After the selections are made, the rolls are automatically produced and the player with the highest roll total wins. Should a player choose to roll without karma, he gains a standard /roll, as in a traditional open roll system; players who choose to roll with karma have their current karma total added to their roll result to create a new total.
Thus, if player A chooses to roll without karma and ends up with a 49, then his roll total would simply be a 49. However, if player B chooses to roll with karma, then his current karma total is added to that value; if he has 25 karma and rolls a 25, his roll total would then be 50 and he would win the item. Players can only choose to roll with or without their karma, and they can only make that choice before they actually roll. When a player chooses to roll with karma, he uses his entire current karma total -- using a portion of karma is not allowed. A player who chooses to roll with karma and wins an item then has his karma reduced by 50%, rounded up to the nearest factor of 5. Note that the value is always rounded up; therefore, all values of 1-4 are rounded up to 5, and all values of 6-9 are rounded up to 0. Players who choose to roll with karma but do not win the item suffer no penalty.
Should a player who chooses to roll with karma have 50 more karma points than anyone else choosing to roll (with or without karma), then he automatically wins the item without a roll taking place and is docked the normal amount. This condition is put into place to create a more equal system in which players with exceptionally bad luck rolling don't constantly lose to players with exceptionally good luck rolling. (For example, spending 50 karma and rolling a 1 while someone without any karma merely rolls a 52 would never happen within the system.)
The creators of the system note that it's important to factor in how much karma is entering and exiting the system at any given time. You do not want so little karma that long-time members feel they have no advantage over newer raiders, while conversely, you don't want a massive build-up of karma points that would prevent newer members for ever getting loot. The suggested rate should be approximately 20 karma earned per raid; however, the actual value should be determined by the guild itself.
Alternatively, guilds can add a minimum karma cost to all items, should karma hoarding ever become an issue, To this end, every time a player wins an item without using karma, he is still docked a nominal amount of karma points in order to prevent "roll fishing" (in which a player hoards karma for a specific item but still attempts to snag other pieces of loot that players who are using their karma may want). This, however, is one the wonderful things about the system, as it can act as both a DKP variant and an open roll variant at the same time. Stockpiling karma for a specific item allows karma to function more akin to DKP -- in which the player reaches the 50-karma point and is then able to "purchase" the item through raw karma, but at a very high karma cost -- or a player can use karma as merely a roll bonus at low levels of karma, to increase his chances of success but at a relatively low karma cost.
Shroud Loot System (SLS)
Last but certainly not least is Shroud Loot System, or SLS. SLS is a form of DKP-variant system that is somewhat similar to Ni Karma but so very different. Within SLS, players earn DKP as they normally would; however, bidding is done based upon two principles. Each item that drops has two different cost plateaus; a player can either choose to pay a low, fixed price amount for an item, or he can choose to spend 50% of his current total on the item. There is no actual bidding within Shroud. A player can only choose one of those two options; he cannot choose a higher or lower amount to spend.
In the event that two players tie in the amount of DKP that they are willing to spend (which generally only occurs when players are only willing to spend the lower, fixed cost), then a random roll is used to determine the winner. The brilliant principle that drives SLS is that it isn't based on an auction-style bidding system, as traditional DKP systems are. In this manner, bidding is much more streamlined, and DKP hoarding is prohibited, as similar to Ni Karma, players will always have to spend at least 50% of their current DKP to gain an item that they are seeking. Through this, a hoarder is going to find his stash depleted rather quickly with only minimal gains, which tends to balance out the system naturally instead of requiring a need to adjust DKP values. Having the fixed price on items is a brilliant plan for the more minor upgrades or players getting items for their off spec; it allows them to not lose a significant value of DKP on a low-priority item, but it prevents them from getting loot for nothing, which can lead to inflation. (Conversely, however, high-cost off spec items generally keep hybrid classes from gearing up their secondary roles, which can hurt a guild in the long run.)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Deathknighty Jul 18th 2010 6:10PM
Interesting. Is there an addon or something for the Ni Karma one? I think it looks perfect for my guild. :)
Xetan Jul 18th 2010 9:31PM
There is an addon For it, my old guild used to use it.
Tyler Caraway Jul 19th 2010 12:28AM
There is indeed.
You can find it at http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/ni-karma-system.aspx
So far as I know, it's still up and working with the current build.
Deathknighty Jul 19th 2010 6:07AM
Thanks, that looks good for my guild, so I'll download it asap. Tyvm. ;D
Drmcjakeface Jul 18th 2010 6:20PM
Our guild uses a low roll system. When join as a raider in out guild you start off at 100 underpants (yes we're that juvenile) and for every raid you attend you lose 5 underpants (to a minimum of 30), every week there is a gain of 5 underpants (with a max of 100) whether you raid or not (our form of point decay). When an item drops, you roll your underpants level, lowest roll wins. There is also stuff like MS > Trial > OS and usually some form of discretion is used regarding tier tokens and HC upgrades (For example casters with 264 Dislodged Foreign Object were banned from HC version until those without 264 version all had it)
BooCat Jul 18th 2010 8:30PM
I never understood why nobody put a Cap on DKP, which would stop hoaring.
Shiro Jul 18th 2010 10:56PM
As an answer to the "why not just cap DKP to stop hoarding" question. The answer lies in the fact that a lot of raiders in a DKP system feel as though the current tier of raid content for them holds little in the way of upgrades. There may be one or two items that they really want.
If you cap their DKP, then there is no incentive for them to attend raids where they don't want anything. As such, then you get a situation where your "gear up" raids are made up of only alts, PuGs and undergeared mains. Then you find that the "gear up" raids become long tedious affairs rather than the blow throughs that you get when you've got 10 or so main core raiders helping out for DKP bonuses.
The key thing is making sure that spending their DKP creates a null sum at some point. If they hoard and hoard their DKP, then the next tier of content needs to charge considerably more for items at the beginning in order to pull some currency out of the system.
It's why guilds that do DKP right tend to have one officer who pulls his hair out every time a new boss is released, because they've got to value the pieces properly so that the long term raiders get them, and lower their DKP to manageable levels, but not put them so high that they say "meh, I'll wait until the prices drop".
omnibishop Jul 19th 2010 2:25AM
My guild uses a basic DKP system, only with a exponentially increasing decay rate. You earn DKP as usual, you spend DKP as usual. But, the longer you've been raiding and the more DKP you have, the more it decays. So for people that like to hoard DKP, it trickles away slowly at first, but the bigger the pile gets, the more it drips away.
This not only encourages those at the top of the heap to spend their DKP wisely, but it is also beneficial to the new raiders who might not have a bunch of DKP to begin with so they won't feel like they aren't getting gear for a while.
Backspace Jul 18th 2010 6:19PM
Honestly I've always felt like these complicated raid loot systems are just made for raid groups full of people who aren't really friends and, while they'll stay together to raid, need some sort of complicated loot system to keep them from tearing each other apart over loot arguments.
Running in a 10 man group of close friends, we all just sort of use the "alright who wants this?" system... and it works fine.
Not to put down guilds full of people who aren't quite close friends and have to have some sort of system in place to stop their relationships from turning into loot drama or anything...
relmatos Jul 18th 2010 6:41PM
My previous guild died for me when wotlk came and they decided to use Suicide Kings on loot rolls instead of the basic system we used back in TBC (politeness, roll if you need, pass if someone else needs it more, if there's a dispute, settle it talking in group).
I really dont want to group with people who need a complicated loot system to raid since it means the group just isnt united.
Rude Hero Jul 18th 2010 6:42PM
I would argue that it's a matter of the organizational difficulties of 10-man vs. 25-man raiding, rather than personality or "friendship" issues.
Sure, if you have 24 friends that are guaranteed to show up every raid night and are guaranteed a raid slot and only care about downing bosses, you wouldn't need a loot system in a large raid. Few of us (the truly hardcore raiders) are so lucky!
Not to mention that it's much easier to evaluate who should be awarded a piece of gear when there are only 2 or 3 to decide between. Sometimes I curse necklaces, cloaks and rings. Loot would be so much easier otherwise.
Shade Jul 18th 2010 6:58PM
Ooh, Backspace, you've hit on a sociological issue I've been pondering over for some time...
Being someone's "friend" means waaaayyyy different things to different people. Standards run from incredibly high (I'd trust you to put a loaded gun to my head after I banged your girlfriend) to incredibly low (We're in the same 400-person chem lecture and I asked you a question once).
Additionally, as RealID has brought to light, people place different priorities on whether "MMO" or "RPG" matters more to their game experience, and in general whether online relationships hold any significance to them.
These two things aside, it is entirely possible for someone who's your "best online friend" to end the relationship over a single issue of loot drama. Conversely, it is also entirely possible for the "guildie who you'd camp over and over if you could pvp your own faction" to pass you a piece of loot without lording it over you.
Even past that, I think it would be unreasonable to expect someone to never ever get upset over loot no matter what. In my personal experience, when I was just learning to raid, a fellow mage took me under his wing and showed me good glyphs, specs, rotations, etc and made sure I understood what I needed to do for every boss fight. He overgeared me initially, but even as I caught up and started to pass him, he'd still try to get loot passed to me for being diligent. Everyone has a limit, though, and one day it was just one drop too many for him. Initially I argued with him because I won the roll and to be frank I wasn't used to not getting what I wanted in raids. (Fortunately for my humanity, it didn't take long for me to realize what was going on and I ticketed the loot to him).
tl;dr People have different standards for friendship and expectations from WoW, and just by human nature there's always going to be a few isolated incidents of drama over the long run, even from a drama-free group
Heilig Jul 18th 2010 7:15PM
I still don't see what's wrong with plain old DKP. As long as the points are reset relatively frequently (e.g. the beginning of a new raid tier) standard bidding DKP rewards attendance and dedication and encourages consistency and Loyalty. Nobody wants to leave big DKP backlog to go to another guild, and if you have been there busting your butt with a guild for months, you don't want to lose your choice upgrade to somebody who got there last week. Institute a decay to keep people from hoarding and you're golden.
theRaptor Jul 18th 2010 7:23PM
@Heilig
Not every guild is designed for the sterotypical "raider". My guild is casual/family and so our loot system needs to let people who rarely raid have a chance at loot.
I used DKP back in classic and TBC and still feel that even for a progression minded guild it causes more problems than it solves.
CaryEverett Jul 18th 2010 7:54PM
Unfortunately, idealism starts to die out when confronted with things like... trinkets
It's amazing how much drama can erupt over an item that as many as maybe let's say 13 people all want. With a 20% chance to drop each week, you're looking at an item that would take over a year to get one for everybody in the raid under ideal circumstances.
Zrob Jul 18th 2010 7:57PM
MY raid started LK with an SK system. When we decided we didn't want to do 25 man anymore and devoted ourselves to 10 man I ran it with Master Looting and discussion + rolls.
Now that 80% or the raid has been running together for over a year and the rest of us at least six months, we've scrapped master looting entirely. People know what they need and they know what the raid needs. Need if you in any way need it cuz if you hit greed it's probably gonna get auto-sharded. Occasionally someone "needs" something more than someone else and they are free to make their case to the winner and receive a trade or the raid leader will need on a BOE just to make sure it doesn't get sharded, then it gets rerolled for selling or use.
We've had to make some tweeks in the system. For instance the Rogue always has priority on daggers while the Hunter always has priority on ranged weapons, if a one hander drops then it's open for both of them to roll on. It's funny when we sub people in and forget to mention it. When we know the loot tables we're looking at and the specs of the people we're playing with, loot is already half divvied up before we ever start playing, it's just a matter of seeing drops and getting them into the right bag.
Sleutel Jul 18th 2010 8:00PM
The ideal loot system is Loot Council. Period. Anything else is an attempt to recreate through a system of complex rules what an LC does naturally: i.e., distribute gear to the people who can best use it to help the raid improve. That means factoring in who shows up, who knows the strategies, who has good raid awareness, what class and spec someone is playing, and what their current gear is.
If you trust your fellow raiders and have a group of people who are knowledgeable about what gear is best for what classes/specs, run an LC. If you think your leadership is going to play favorites, or if you think your guildmates are going to whine every time a piece they wanted goes to someone else, that's when you use another system.
theRaptor Jul 18th 2010 9:00PM
@Sleutel
People have a lot of unconscious let alone conscious bias. Points or roll based systems remove the effect of that bias.
Loot council mostly works fine for old raiding groups who have been around for ever. But it is a nightmare in newly formed guilds or ones with a lot of new raiders.
Judging "efficiency" in raiding is incredibly subjective.
neminem Jul 18th 2010 11:19PM
+1.
Our guild has always used the "who wants this?" method, and I can't imagine using anything else. It just wouldn't be as much fun raiding with a group that doesn't often have arguments over which person deserves a piece of loot more ("it's more of an upgrade for you, you should take it!" "Yeah, for my offspec" "Your offspec that you play half the time, and you show up to more raids than I do" "I don't even want it that badly, it's yours!" etc.)
I love my guild.
Wulfkin Jul 19th 2010 9:26AM
My guild has always succesfully used Loot Council for 10 mans. yes peopel can be biased but we have a solid officer core that everyone trusts and gets on with, and the reasoning behind decisions could always be discussed in the event of an issue.
However when we expanded into 25-man runs we found this took way too long. With more loot pieces dropped per boss, we could spend 15-20 mins discussing and assigning all the loot. During Ulduar we used EPGP - a modified DKP system, which worked alright, but still suffered from inflation.
For ICC we switched to a 'List' system, which actually works very well. Every guild members submits a monthly list of 10 items they want, in order of preference. When an item drops the raider who has that item on the highest position on the list wins it, with rolls to decide in the event of a tie. This obviously requires some preparation in advance, but it allows for extremely quick and easy loot allocation, as all raiders have already attached importantance to available loot items before they even set foot in the instance.
At the end of the day, a friendly 'who needs this?' system is the best, but failing that I recommend Loot Council or List systems, mostly because people will rarely ever feel like they were screwed over.