Nonstandard loot systems in WoW, page 2

Although I would like to present these loot systems in an objective method, I cannot help but mention that this is perhaps the most ingenious loot system that I've come across in my days of playing WoW. Ni Karma, or the Ni Karma System (NKS), was developed by one of the many guilds named Knights Who Say Ni and is a pseudo-zero-sum DKP system that operates on, as the name implies, karma. NKS should not be confused with a DKP system, however, because even though players accrue karma points as they might DKP points, you cannot explicitly spend karma in order to gain an item. Instead, NKS is more akin to an open roll system in which players may adjust their rolls through the usage of karma -- essentially adding in the equality nature that is missing from a straight open roll system.
Within NKS, karma is awarded to players for various things that are dependent upon the guild, as you might gain DKP. Karma may be awarded for showing up on time, killing bosses, time spent within a raid, work on a progression kill or whatever other variables a guild may choose to use. Once an item drops, it is then placed up for bid within an open roll system. Before rolling, each player is given three options: pass, roll without karma or roll with karma. After the selections are made, the rolls are automatically produced and the player with the highest roll total wins. Should a player choose to roll without karma, he gains a standard /roll, as in a traditional open roll system; players who choose to roll with karma have their current karma total added to their roll result to create a new total.
Thus, if player A chooses to roll without karma and ends up with a 49, then his roll total would simply be a 49. However, if player B chooses to roll with karma, then his current karma total is added to that value; if he has 25 karma and rolls a 25, his roll total would then be 50 and he would win the item. Players can only choose to roll with or without their karma, and they can only make that choice before they actually roll. When a player chooses to roll with karma, he uses his entire current karma total -- using a portion of karma is not allowed. A player who chooses to roll with karma and wins an item then has his karma reduced by 50%, rounded up to the nearest factor of 5. Note that the value is always rounded up; therefore, all values of 1-4 are rounded up to 5, and all values of 6-9 are rounded up to 0. Players who choose to roll with karma but do not win the item suffer no penalty.
Should a player who chooses to roll with karma have 50 more karma points than anyone else choosing to roll (with or without karma), then he automatically wins the item without a roll taking place and is docked the normal amount. This condition is put into place to create a more equal system in which players with exceptionally bad luck rolling don't constantly lose to players with exceptionally good luck rolling. (For example, spending 50 karma and rolling a 1 while someone without any karma merely rolls a 52 would never happen within the system.)
The creators of the system note that it's important to factor in how much karma is entering and exiting the system at any given time. You do not want so little karma that long-time members feel they have no advantage over newer raiders, while conversely, you don't want a massive build-up of karma points that would prevent newer members for ever getting loot. The suggested rate should be approximately 20 karma earned per raid; however, the actual value should be determined by the guild itself.
Alternatively, guilds can add a minimum karma cost to all items, should karma hoarding ever become an issue, To this end, every time a player wins an item without using karma, he is still docked a nominal amount of karma points in order to prevent "roll fishing" (in which a player hoards karma for a specific item but still attempts to snag other pieces of loot that players who are using their karma may want). This, however, is one the wonderful things about the system, as it can act as both a DKP variant and an open roll variant at the same time. Stockpiling karma for a specific item allows karma to function more akin to DKP -- in which the player reaches the 50-karma point and is then able to "purchase" the item through raw karma, but at a very high karma cost -- or a player can use karma as merely a roll bonus at low levels of karma, to increase his chances of success but at a relatively low karma cost.
Shroud Loot System (SLS)
Last but certainly not least is Shroud Loot System, or SLS. SLS is a form of DKP-variant system that is somewhat similar to Ni Karma but so very different. Within SLS, players earn DKP as they normally would; however, bidding is done based upon two principles. Each item that drops has two different cost plateaus; a player can either choose to pay a low, fixed price amount for an item, or he can choose to spend 50% of his current total on the item. There is no actual bidding within Shroud. A player can only choose one of those two options; he cannot choose a higher or lower amount to spend.
In the event that two players tie in the amount of DKP that they are willing to spend (which generally only occurs when players are only willing to spend the lower, fixed cost), then a random roll is used to determine the winner. The brilliant principle that drives SLS is that it isn't based on an auction-style bidding system, as traditional DKP systems are. In this manner, bidding is much more streamlined, and DKP hoarding is prohibited, as similar to Ni Karma, players will always have to spend at least 50% of their current DKP to gain an item that they are seeking. Through this, a hoarder is going to find his stash depleted rather quickly with only minimal gains, which tends to balance out the system naturally instead of requiring a need to adjust DKP values. Having the fixed price on items is a brilliant plan for the more minor upgrades or players getting items for their off spec; it allows them to not lose a significant value of DKP on a low-priority item, but it prevents them from getting loot for nothing, which can lead to inflation. (Conversely, however, high-cost off spec items generally keep hybrid classes from gearing up their secondary roles, which can hurt a guild in the long run.)
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Orestes Jul 18th 2010 6:59PM
We've used SKG (manually maintained list, addons have proven problematic long term) in our 25 man runs for years now. It's not without it's minor imperfections but it's the right balance of simplicity and fairness of distribution for us. For ten mans and pug runs we just use free /rolls with mainspec given priority
krusty_burger Jul 18th 2010 7:22PM
ep/gp seems to be working well for our group.
as far as these variants: the karma one sounds stupid, the coin one sounds awesome. indifference towards the others.
Bas Jul 18th 2010 7:29PM
My previous guild used (and probably is still using) Loot Ladder system (eg. http://www.thedrunkendwarf.com ) . Very simple and effective.
Bobson Jul 18th 2010 7:56PM
I've always had an idea for a loot system, but I've never been in a position to suggest it, and I'd like some feedback. Is this something that might interest people? It feels on the complex side to me, but I don't think it's significantly more complex than some of the others...
Everyone who wants an item rolls on it. However, no one does a standard /roll. Instead, people do an /roll X where X is some number as determined by the system (/roll = /roll 100), and the high roll gets the item.
X starts at 75.
+25 if you're rolling on gear for your main spec.
+10 if you're rolling on your armor type
+25 if you haven't won anything yet tonight (or in this lockout) (alternatively, apply a -15 for each item you've won tonight)
-50 if it's something you can't equip.
+any other arbitrary amount for helping out the guild.
(All numbers are off the top of my head and may need tweaking)
So if the first drop of the night is shaman healer mail, a holydin would /roll 125, a restro shaman would /roll 135, and an elemental shaman would /roll 110. Anyone else who wanted it for any reason would /roll 75 or /roll 25 (depending on whether they could equip mail). The item is then won by the highest roll. This gives a large advantage to the people who can use the item the most (if the restro shaman rolls a 126 or better in this example, no one else can possibly beat him except another restro shaman), but still allows for the randomness of open rolls.
Any thoughts? Is this needlessly complex to not solve any problems? Is it something worth trying?
Dan Jul 18th 2010 8:43PM
I like your system a lot, i think I'm gonna steal it for my guild =)
the only thing i might change is completely disallowing rolling on items you can't equip unless its about to be disenchanted, and someone would rather have the gold. I know depending on the server enchanting mats are down, and some of the ICC stuff vendors quite nicely. This way the still get their vendor stuff, but they take the penalty for the rest of the run if they want any other items.
Bobson Jul 18th 2010 8:55PM
Oooh. Let me know how it goes - if you just reply here after you've used it for a while, I've got it set to notify me. I'd love to hear about it. :)
Skrotus Jul 19th 2010 2:53AM
Your system would allow me to win things as offspec over a mainspec raider, or even win something I can't even use if I'm lucky enough! I just can't see that one working out.
Bryntol heroic (2h axe) drops:
Warrior rolls /roll 125 is unlucky and gets a 4
Rogue rolls /roll 25 and gets 9
Rogue wins? :(
Bobson Jul 19th 2010 3:00AM
Well, you could do what Dan's planning and disallow unuseable rolls at all. It's certainly a valid way to do it. Probably makes more sense that way.
But yeah, the guy who has enough penalties stacked up to be rolling a /roll 25 can still win it over the guy who has a /roll 150 if the dice fall that way... but it still beats both doing a ordinary /roll.
Kia Jul 18th 2010 8:01PM
Am I the only one who's always just used a basic "Need or Greed" setup, even in progression content? In all the groups / guilds I've run with since seriously playing, I've always rolled this way and it has never, ever once caused drama.
I've always found DKP and similar systems annoying, and I can't see why this most basic of systems wouldn't work as long as you've got a guild of decent adults.
Sorcefire Jul 19th 2010 11:35AM
The reason all these complicated systems evolved is that the default loot system merely determine who is eligible to roll on loot (meaning those who were present when boss was downed). It does not determine who "should" be eligible to roll on loot. Making that decision is way too subjective considering the imbalance of loot across classes and specs.
Short of Blizzard introducing a smart loot system that looks at currently equipped gear, spec, and whatnot as well as expanding the loot options (i.e., need primary spec, need secondary spec, need upgrade, need sidegrade, etc.) players are still going to have to rely on some sort of subjective loot system to ensure people who "should" be eligible to roll get a fair chance to do so.
The sad reality is, while we know we will need these systems, that need seems to be directly tied to the solidarity of the group or raid.
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Jul 18th 2010 8:15PM
Is "Okay, for whom would this be the biggest upgrade?" a legit loot system?
Tyler Caraway Jul 18th 2010 8:31PM
It is, we've used it in our 10-mans for quite a long time, but we were all fairly close (as online people go) and therefore trust wasn't an issue. In matters of 25 people with whom there's a varying degree of how much trust you put into them, such a system may or may not work.
In general, I think loot systems were created less so for the practicality of having a formal looting method, but more so to have a "better" system than one wherein a single "Jerk" can ruin the fun for everyone.
I've run lots of different systems - DKP, Dual Token, Ni Karma, and Loot Council - and each have worked to various degrees; it's more so a matter of the type of guild that you are in and the players which you raid with.
To some players, Speed Before Greed is a legit loot system. :\ (For those that do not know, Speed Before Greed isn't really a loot system; the basics of it are that you leave looting on FFA and whomever loots the boss first gets the items. Needless to say, it isn't very popular)
Heremod Jul 19th 2010 2:00AM
"who is this the biggest upgrade for" is generally called loot council. A loot council can be all 10 people in the raid :-).
feniks9174 Jul 19th 2010 11:36AM
Yeah, that would be loot council. The problem with Loot Council, however, is that the Loot Council needs to know every spec and at least a general idea of stat weights. Some paladin and warrior BiS are leather or Mail pieces, some specs of the same class gem/itemize differently (SV/MM hunters). Can you tell if that leather piece is best for the Bear tank, the warrior, the hunter, the Kitty or the Rogue?
This is even further complicated by Tokens/Trophies and trinkets. Tiny Abom is Amazing for Enhancement and Ret, but pretty terrible for Rogues. But what about the Frost DK using Banner of Victory? Is the Moonkin 4 Piece set bonus any good?
Loot Council = Great for 10s with friends, bad for 25's.
chyllyphylly Jul 18th 2010 8:29PM
I'm in a guild of older players (aged 30+). And we are treated as adults. We have a fairly simple system.
Need if you need. Greed if its for offspec or you have brought in an alt. Pass if you dont want it.
No loot dramas, no whining, simples
logicalfundy Jul 18th 2010 8:41PM
Assuming the random number generator is sufficiently random, the need/greed system is about as fair as you can get. A round-robin system would also be a fair system.
In most cases, the more complex the loot system the more it can cause conflicts. A simple but fair system is likely the best.
Shiro Jul 18th 2010 11:23PM
Here's the rebuttal that I hear on the need/greed from my raiders...
OK, so I go on your raid every week for the good of the guild. I've attended the past 10 ICC runs. I've got bad rolling luck. I roll every time and get outrolled for the stuff I want. I ran 10 ICCs and got no loot.
I'm on my 11th ICC and we've got a new guy with us. Everyone else is geared except for me and him. The first boss drops something I need and I get outrolled by the new guy.
Now, you'll say "oh well, unlucky". I'll say "Hey, why the heck should I raid with you guys when I go every single week and have nothing to show for it. There are other guilds where I'd get some kind of reward because they use DKP so the same lucky B@stards don't get the loot every single week" (huffs and puffs)
That's why most guilds hate N/G. Because you'll lose that guy who raids every week but rolls bad to a guild that has a more "fair" distribution system.
logicalfundy Jul 20th 2010 9:45AM
Yeah, sometimes a little bit of order can appear in chaos. Random stuff doesn't always behave, and not all RNGs are truly random.
So I suppose a simple round-robin system may be better as it gets rid of the chance of an unlucky streak.
It may also be possible to modify the RNG so that long lucky/unlucky streaks aren't possible. That may reduce the randomness of the RNG, but would improve the short term quality.
Theoretically, in a true RNG you should have the same probability of having a "lucky streak" as you do an unlucky streak, and thus should be fair - but honestly, I don't think people want long streaks, so they probably should be filtered out.
So yeah, you do have a valid point.
Phelps Jul 18th 2010 8:52PM
Our guild only used DKP for 25 mans or bigger, and we use a spend-all method. If you need an item, you spend all your DKP to buy it. You get 1 dkp for killing a boss. It deals with the bad luck issue, gives newcomers a reason to stick around and not feel like the goalposts are constantly moving, and spreads loot around where we need it. When everyone is being reset to zero fairly often, it also really persuades the point horders to not bother unless they really DO only need that "last piece".
Wake Jul 18th 2010 10:39PM
The problem with loot distribution systems that depend on loot to drop to affect the "currency" is that progression raids (such as raids where you wipe for several evenings without any loot dropping) either become too unrewarding or resultinging in inflation of the points in the system, depending on which parameters you choose.
It's extremely difficult to balance it out as there's no way to tell how easily you will progress in a new instance, and in all honesty, it is early on when new content is released that loot distribution means the most.
The only fair system, if handled right, is Loot Council.