Blood Sport: The PvP perspective on new talent trees
Want to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women? Blood Sport investigates the entirety of all things arena for gladiators and challengers alike. C. Christian Moore, multiple rank 1 gladiator, examines the latest arena strategy, trends, compositions and more in WoW.com's arena column.
Listening Music: Death Cab's "I will possess your heart." Long intro version, because it's awesome.
Last Week: Want to hit some arena up before the Xpac, or just need some awesome leveling gear? Check out last week -- we go over how to gear up for PvP.
In case you missed it, here's what Blizzard has said about new talent trees and PvP:
Q. Is your goal to not having to use a talent specialization solely for PvP? If so, please elaborate on how you plan to accomplish that?
A. This is almost impossible to "fix." With the nature of talents min/max will always be possible. That said, we're trying to move away from having purely PvP or purely PvE talents as much as possible, which will make the pure PvP specializations less painful to play in PvE and vice versa.
A #2. We are removing many of the PvP talents, as well as trying to make some of the PvP talents a little more useful for PvE (for example, a talent that currently procs on taking critical damage could instead proc on taking any damage, including AoE damage, as well). While we recognize that very competitive players might still want unique talent builds for PvP vs. PvE, the hope is that more players might be able to use the same specialization more often for multiple aspects of the game.
A. This is almost impossible to "fix." With the nature of talents min/max will always be possible. That said, we're trying to move away from having purely PvP or purely PvE talents as much as possible, which will make the pure PvP specializations less painful to play in PvE and vice versa.
A #2. We are removing many of the PvP talents, as well as trying to make some of the PvP talents a little more useful for PvE (for example, a talent that currently procs on taking critical damage could instead proc on taking any damage, including AoE damage, as well). While we recognize that very competitive players might still want unique talent builds for PvP vs. PvE, the hope is that more players might be able to use the same specialization more often for multiple aspects of the game.
Fantastic! I love it! I'd rather see PvP talents be completely obliterated and Blizzard just balance around PvE talents, but this is probably the next best thing I could have hoped for.
Let's go back in a time a bit. Blizzard dropped a bombshell on us with the announcement of completely revamped, 31-point talent trees. I salivated upon pondering the possibilities. And then we got them ... Hooray!? I play six classes (although like most players, I love one the most), so I was very excited to see all the different ideas Blizzard imagined. Depending on your class (or even spec), you were probably very happy or very disappointed. Personally, I'm excited about some class trees (priests, warriors), while being disappointed with others (warlocks).
The good news is that it's still beta, and there's still a way to go until Cataclysm hits the shelves of your local shop. Instead of talking your ear off on different talent trees that aren't anywhere remotely close to finalized, I'd like to share with you a PvP perspective on new talent trees.
PvP talents for PvPers who raid
PvP talents penalize PvPers in PvE. Because you picked up that awesome stamina increase or stun-duration-reduction talent, you're missing out on a 2% damage increase. Or, comparatively, because you took talents that allowed you to dispel cheaper/faster/more effectively, you're losing out on healing power.
"Hold on, I need to respec (and reglyph) for that raid -- I'm PvP spec right now."
While annoying, respeccing to raid isn't the only downside to PvP talents. Oh no, far from it.
PvP talents for raiders who PvP
Allowing raiders to have a viable PvP spec just by taking talents that maximize their raid performance will be a huge boon to PvP. Removing pure PvP talents (like resilience-boosting talents, for instance) allows Blizzard to balance PvP around popular PvE specs.
Currently, raiders who enter a battleground or an arena with a PvE spec are much less effective at staying alive. I don't know about you, but dying all the time isn't much fun for me. When people don't have fun doing something, they usually just stop.
Fewer people are playing arena in Wrath of the Lich King than they were in The Burning Crusade. This makes it less fun for everyone participating in arenas. Fewer people means fewer arena teams. Fewer arena teams turns into slower queues. Slower queues create less accurate matches. Less accurate matches give way to larger blowouts -- which makes it less fun for the losers.
Rinse, repeat, recycle.
Downsides of removing PvP talents
PvP talents allows less-geared players (or alts) to advance a bit quicker in PvP if they're fighting against people without PvP specs. For instance, many players (especially below 1,800 rating) use their PvE specs in both arenas and battlegrounds. If you have far inferior gear than they do, your PvP spec will help to cover some of that ground (albeit not much, usually).
That's honestly the only benefit I can think of when it comes to PvP talents. If you can think of more, please let me know in the comments.
Demonology's opportunity cost
While these talents might be changing in a few days or weeks, look no further than a demonology talent calculator for an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about.
Demonic Embrace, Master Demonologist, Soul Link -- those six points are absolutely necessary for a PvPing warlock, but they could go into other trees if you had a real choice when it came to PvP. Or, if you are a demonology warlock, that's six points that could be something else in your tree that could improve your damage.
By the way, while we're on the topic of demonology, isn't it about time the Felguard got a new ability? Hamstring would be nice, as affliction has Curse of Exhaustion and destruction has Aftermath. That guy has had a blank space on his action bar for like four years now.
In any case, I'm very excited to see the next set of talent builds for all classes.
Want to ascend the arena ladders faster than a fireman playing Donkey Kong? Check out WoW.com's articles on arena, successful arena PvPers, PvP, and our arena column, Blood Sport.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Blood Sport (Arena PvP)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
yujie.max Jul 19th 2010 9:31PM
I think Hamstring probably would deviate from the original Felguard's design philosophy.
Saurfang's cleave would be better.
yujie.max Jul 19th 2010 9:57PM
Oh sweet moses! No edit button!
The Felguard's original design philosophy*
Nagheen Jul 20th 2010 6:14AM
The Felguard may have a free slot on his actionbar, but he has 4 abilities just like every pet.
Only Demonic Frenzy is a passive ability, so it doesn't show up on the bar.
That being said, it would be awesome to give him an additional skill, something like Mortal strike or Bladestorm, staying with the arms warrior design philosophy ^-^
Tirris Jul 19th 2010 10:03PM
I agree about DCFC. It is a great song.
Crimpshrine Jul 20th 2010 2:27AM
Agreed, except that in this particular song the bass player has got to be wondering why they don't just replace him with a tape loop.
Darky Jul 20th 2010 3:15AM
It's a query many of us bass players have, unless of course your in a band like tool.
Cleaved Jul 19th 2010 10:26PM
Simple solution... PVP-only specs/trees with all different talents, that cannot be used in PVE. As well as PVE specs that can't be used in PVP.
Zone into a raid instance, heroic or what have you, and you are automatically switched to a PVE spec and can re-spec to one of your Dual-specs.
Zone into a PVP raid, BG, Arena, and you are switched to your PVP spec (maybe even dual specs for those too)
Would be a lot easier than the headache of balancing all these abilities around 2 different types of gameplay and nerfing the crap out of our PVE specs/abilities because someone manipulates them for PVP-gain.
World PVP would stay as whatever... use whatever spec you like. Its world PVP, unregulated as it always has been. This system would make world-pvp even more survivable, if you could farm/quest in your PVP spec on a server where being ganked is a constant threat.
Dave Jul 20th 2010 8:52AM
I (and I'm sure many others) have been saying this forever. I think they should have done this before doing dual specs. (And I'm a druid!!)
Separating PVP and PVE talent trees would all but stop the constant see-saw balancing that goes on.
Let me say it again: Separating PVP and PVE talent trees would all but stop the constant see-saw balancing that goes on.
Every time someone exploits a PVP talent for PVE and gets ridiculous DPS, or that scales too well in PVE....rebalance. Nevermind super useful PVE talents that get axed because they would be OP in PVP only.
Brett the Roman Jul 19th 2010 10:33PM
I most definitely agree with the demonology opportunity cost; on live, i always loathe having to blow those 17 points into demonology just to allow myself proper survivability in pvp (ie. soul link and fel domination to allow emergency pet summoning so I'm not taking 20% more damage for the rest of an arena match if my pet gets gibbed mid-fight).
Before the tree revamp I thought "hey great! I'll finally be able to take that 6 points above soul link and pick up something else... well, moderately decent in destro, or fill out those bloated talents I have to miss in affliction".
Then I noted the new trees and thought "crap, now I have to invest 6 points where I have less than half as many points to go around when it took 17 points to stay competitive. And now that everything is all new and shiny (so far) I'm missing out on other cool stuff in destro or.. well mainly destro so far because of completion, with those 6 points."
On the whole though, I like how destro is shaping up a lot so far, with demonology not far behind; although the redundancy in having to choose something like improved health funnel just to get to tier 3 is annoying, but mainly an artifact that I'm sure will be corrected in a new build soon.
I think our new stuff will complement the new shard system well, and I look forward to adapting a fresher take on the warlock's play style.
"Opportunity cost" in other talent trees is still evident too, but with Blizzard posting comments like the blue quote posted above, and the one mentioning that soul link and preparation for example suck to balance around, I'm optimistic that they'll do something great to dig those classes and others like them out of the balancing rut they're stuck in with mandatory talents (especially when it comes to pvp specs). Making the abilities baseline would be a simple solution, although I can't visualize *every* ramification that would result from that choice, but blizzard's team must have something in mind that will improve those situations.
I'm looking forward to it all :D
Steve Jul 19th 2010 11:02PM
How could I not have heard Death Cab before today? What a freakin' awesome song.
SamLowry Jul 20th 2010 1:05AM
Is that Cutie in the video? She's kinda hot!
pancakes Jul 20th 2010 2:47AM
You should really check out some more of their stuff. They're a really, really good band (in my opinion, at least.)
Modder Jul 20th 2010 3:08PM
While we are on the Ben Gibbard train, why not have some Postal Service next week? or for that matter, even Iron & Wine's cover of "Such Great Heights"? that would just brighten my day.
Vogie Jul 19th 2010 11:07PM
What Blizzard needs to do is make ALL talents PvP AND PvE viable. At first glance, that would be an insane undertaking, but a bit of logic, and a bit of elbow grease, it actually makes sense.
We already have a live talent that gives an idea: Deep Freeze. Originally useless in PvE, now it's a staple, although Frost mages have yet to be.
We also had a beta talent that gave a better idea: Holy Shield. Although not in the current one, Holy shield was still an activated talent... however, it also had three ranks in the tree. Not the typical setup for our trees, which is Activated Talent ===> Improved Activated Talent.
In the Current Wowhead Beta Build, there's also talents that are PvP/PvE Hybrids - Improved Shadowform is a wonderful example. Raiders take it for the Raid Crit, PvPers for the ability to transform "fade" into "escape artist"
But this got me thinking... what if the "pvp" passive abilities could also be turned into long-cooldown PvE abilities. Give those abilities the "no arena" cooldown, Ten-ish Minutes, and suddenly there are loads of options. Raiding Fire Mages could hit Blazing speed on that encounter where they need those dresses to fly. Abilities like Blood Craze/Second wind, Martyrdom, Nightfall/Backlash & Owlkin Frenzy can be used when NOT getting hit... just not very often.
scherbaddie Jul 20th 2010 3:21AM
This is a valid strategy and as you said, an insane undertaking.
The other option (what Blizz stated they were going to do with the new trees, but aren't quite there yet), is to have your core PvE/PvP talents in each tree, but create choke-points in the trees where you _get_ (not "have") to throw in a few floater points according to your personal style before moving onto the next tier.
The problem with this is most players see it as a penalty with statements like "having to choose something like improved health funnel just to get to tier 3 is annoying" being bandied about.
People have to remember that your spec's raid dps will be normalised based on all the +dps talents. If every talent tree had 31 solid +x% damage to y ability talents, every raider would take them and your tree's mastery/tuning knob would be adjusted to bring you in line with other classes damage output. If however, you have 25 +dps talents in each tree and six floater points (or Fabulous Opportunity Points™) you get to choose some extra bonuses WITHOUT penalising your dps.
The converse is true for PvPers, you choose your ~16 core survivability/control talents and can spend the extra 15 on damage increases to your more bursty abilities, without feeling penalised; because in an ideal world everyone is in the same boat - no one has 31 pure PvE or PvP talents to choose from.
It's not a nerf, it's an opportunity. We just need more floater points and more choices to spend them on.
Asaron Jul 20th 2010 6:28AM
Yes Scherbaddie, that's my take on it. Baffles me when I see people saying "the arcane tree sucks, I have have to choose a talent like improved polymorph".
Those extra talents mean you can afford (and ideally "choose") some fun/stylish/gimmick talents, they don't mean you are missing out on x% DPS. If your DPS is not exactly where it should be the value of your "+arcane damage" passive will be adjusted, and you'll be right on track AND you'll have that funky mage armour knock back thing or whatever.
Asaron Jul 20th 2010 6:31AM
Hmm I should probably have said "survival/utility/fun" talents as this is a PvP column.
Quigley Jul 19th 2010 11:56PM
Based on several years observation and WoW gaming, it would seem PvP causes WoW so many game play issues because they want it to run concurrent too the PvE experience. Like mixing chalk and cheese really and here in 2010, they're still stirring the sludge..again.
They already have PvP specific servers, why not define that difference and have a pure PvE game build on a PvE server, and PvP Game builds on PvP servers? You make your choice and enjoy the type of game play one would prefer.
We already have separate systems in Armor, currency and zones etc. Why not just create a build that is set to PvP mechanics throughout? You could even unflag to meander about, in an environment that is set to your PvP character if you prefer to level without PvP sufferance all the way up.
Personally as a PvE exclusive player, I understand others enjoy PvP, however I am getting tired of redoing talent trees, downloading patches and content to fix problems in part of the game I never touch. (Seen enough PvP in real life to be over the notion of harming other gamers virtually).
gamerunknown Jul 20th 2010 12:58AM
I personally used my PvE spec with body and soul to get the quick cap achievement. Would have been possible without it, but I blew swiftness potion *2, trinket, got both speed boosts and had seconds to spare. Maybe Blizzard could introduce tri spec when you get step into the arena and quad spec once you get 1000 badges.
Heh.
Pwnererer Jul 20th 2010 2:33AM
o man such an awesome song. DCFC=amazing