Ghostcrawler on bloat vs. choice in talent trees
by Matthew Rossi 
Aug 7th 2010 at 8:00PM
Ghostcrawler - Re: Bloat vs. ChoiceI'm really not building towards any kind of conclusion with any of that. It has just been interesting to see the feedback. I guess I can offer that you might want to be careful about who you think you are speaking for when you say "we feel this" or "we don't want that." Players, even the microcosm of the forum community, want different things.
He lists a long series of different viewpoints some players hold which I think is worth reading in its entirety. It got me to thinking about my own general prefences as to how a talent tree should be designed. I basically like it when there's enough room in any talent tree for two fairly viable builds to emerge in that tree. Back in the day, (not so far back that actual dinosaurs roamed the earth) you had the dual wield and two handed slam builds for fury, and both were fairly viable. (Dual wield did usually come out ahead on damage.) However, I think it unlikely that such a diversity of option in each talent tree is really possible, and a good compromise is the idea that you can get most of the talents you're going to want and then customize based on preference. This is seen in the current warrior protection tree on the beta where one can spec for AoE or single target after picking up most of the core tanking talents.
It's an interesting read all told. Give it a read and see what you think about the idea: how would you define your preferences for talent design? Is there a valid distinction between bloat and choice in a tree? If so, what is it?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, News items, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Jack Miles Aug 7th 2010 8:08PM
I remember back in Vanilla my guild was in Kara and I was choosing, for my SV spec, whether to go for more damage or more managable chainable traps, and discussing it with the other hunters and CCers in the guild. I liked that kind of choice.
Hyacinthe Aug 7th 2010 8:14PM
Kara wasn't in vanilla.
Rando Aug 7th 2010 8:53PM
I thought Kara was in bc, not vanilla
Task Aug 7th 2010 9:01PM
@ Rando
Apparently Kara was in Vanilla... they slipped it in as a different raid..
Killik Aug 8th 2010 7:49AM
Perhaps should read "I remember back in Vanilla and I was choosing, for my SV spec, whether to go for Deflection or Melee Specialization, and discussing it with the other hunters in the guild. I liked that kind of choice."
Arashikou Aug 8th 2010 4:59PM
Expansion confusion aside, the guy has a point. I had the same kinds of discussions with the elder hunters in my guild about choosing between higher DPS and better CC. (And, really, the discussion goes back to pure marksman vs. hybrid marksman/trapping in vanilla. It just got more interesting once survival had some raid DPS utility.) I enjoyed those discussions and decisions as well. And for the record - I went CC.
Naithin Aug 7th 2010 8:10PM
For me the distinction is quite simple.
It's bloat if there are talents you would either:
a) Never ever take, under any circumstances or
b) Only take because it's mandatory to move up the tree, but isn't particularly beneficial to you.
Choice on the other hand is where it's something you actually do have to come to a decision on. Even if it's only a choice between different situational functionality, this is better than bloat or not ever having to think about where to spend your talents at all.
Prot warriors (and to a lesser degree, Disc Priests) are heading quite nicely down the road towards choice. I haven't looked at every class in the most recent builds, but last time I did there was not really /any/ real choice. You got everything you needed, then had to spend points somewhere just to progress, so you tried to find the least bad of several bad (or at least non relevant, i.e., PvP abilities when building for PvE) just so you can move on and take your next desired talent.
That was a terrible situation for the talent trees, but I'm aware it's early days yet. If we can get more trees to the state that Prot Warr is in, where there legitimately are a good number of actual CHOICES to be made, I'll be one very happy WoWer.
..If they /can't/ get it there, I hope they have the cahones to take things back to the 71 pt system, or at least reduce or retract altogether the need for 31 pts to be spent in the primary tree before going else where.
Mike Aug 7th 2010 8:39PM
Enhancement is also in a very nice place for choice. There is only one point that one needs to put in non-damaging talents to get to Feral Spirit and 31 points. Beyond that there's a really good amount of choice for the remaining 10 points. In the Enhancement tree, there's Ancestral Swiftness, Totemic Reach, Toughness, Totemic Vigor, Primal Wisdom, Frozen Power, Earthen Power, and Shamanistic Rage. 100% of which are useful, and not just for unique, situational use.
Naithin Aug 7th 2010 9:04PM
Very happy to hear that Mike. :)
My current alt project on live is a Enh/Resto shaman, but he's quite new and hadn't the depth of understanding required to really review the shaman class. Was one of the last classes in game I'd not experienced personally to any any significant degree.
Been having a heck of a lot of fun with it though, so aye, indeed good to hear shan't be one of the poor talent pick classes come release! :)
zdave Aug 7th 2010 9:11PM
" You got everything you needed, then had to spend points somewhere just to progress, so you tried to find the least bad of several bad (or at least non relevant, i.e., PvP abilities when building for PvE) just so you can move on and take your next desired talent."
So you just described choosing talents, even if you think they are "bad". Bad meaning what? "Naht gud fer mah deepz"? Because that's kind of what Blizz is moving away from.
I understand people have different ideas of what fun is, but -Blizz- is defining it as talents that do not specifically increase "mah deepz". And since we play their game, them's the brakes.
Yes some trees still need work. Good thing Cata isn't dropping tomorrow or else we'd be screwed.
I gotta agree with you on the disc priest changes. We are looking pretty sexy, even more so than usual.
Avan Aug 7th 2010 9:42PM
@zdave:
"Bad talents" probably means something like Blessed Recovery or Martyrdom. Sure, they're great if you're healing and a mob crits you upside the head. Then again, you're planning for failure (on the tank's part) and wasting points. "Bad talents" might also mean something like Silent Resolve, where you're pulling aggro off the tank (because they're not able to compete against healer threat) or where mobs don't dispel buffs; Actually, when was the last time a mob dispelled a buff?
You know, PvP talents in a PvE environment, that have no use. Just like they said!
Naithin Aug 7th 2010 9:44PM
@zdave
Actually, you're pretty much completely right. Was so far into my 'MOAR DEEPS' mode of thinking that I hadn't really stopped to consider what the alternatives really were. This is still not to say I'm entirely satisfied with how they are right now. They definitely talked a big game with the initial post detailing how awesome the 31 pt talent system would be, and I don't really feel it's there yet.
There still isn't really any non DPS talents you can take that will change up the way you play the spec.
To further prove your point really, take a look at: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=lf3eitg.9sm.mage
It's an incomplete Arcane Mage build, basically taking everything anyone in today's game would consider, and then getting stuck.
The options remaining all have their potential uses and ARE situationally viable. Case by case examples:
Tier 1:
Improved Counterspell. Yes, mostly a PvP thing, but if you're running the new age Cata Dungeons were interrupts and CC rule supreme, being able to lock down a healer from range for four seconds is not insignificant.
Tier 2:
Improved Blink. 70% Runspeed after blinking for 3 seconds? Who needs Body and Soul when you can get that? Again, primarily a PvP thing, but can get you out of the way of AoEs, get you back TO the boss faster increasing your DPS opportunity time, and other such things. May be useful for some fights.
Tier 3:
Prismatic Cloak. 6% Flat damage reduction is nothing to sneeze at for a mage, can help out your healers on fights with persistant nonavoidable aura/pulsing damage, not to mention the other effect of making you Invis instant, reducing the time it takes to reset your threat, again offering you more DPS activity time. If you're threat capping your tank, this will allow you to DPS significantly more.
Tier 4:
Improved Polymorph: Again, where CC reigns, better CC.. reigns.. better.. ... Hush you! But no, seriously. It's a little bit of cushioning against stup- uh, zealous DPS.
Incanter's Absorption: With the new version of Mage Ward, leaving this out may actually not truly be an option. It's quite a significant increase in your output if the fight again consists of non avoidable raid damage that your mage ward can absorb, without requiring you to sacrifice mana (and thus DPS due to our mastery) via using Mana Shield. If this talent was lower it could be fairly amazing for Frost mages, as it stands is not accessible for anyone save Arcane though.
Tier 5+ is all filled out anyway.
Now I get that this is just one spec of one class, but I think we'll find most end up in a similar place.
Would I like more variety and some really play style adjusting talents? Would I like to see things change up more? Of course I would. But really, zdave was right. My thinking was simply too entrenched in the current mindset WoW has created. Cata is a completely new beast.
Khirsah Aug 7th 2010 10:10PM
You know what I would like to see? Any rogue out there that has specced for a 44/2/25 PvP build will be able to relate. Perhaps some other classes, too, but I'm not sure. Anyway, when I was working on the build, those last few points truly became a choice:
Do I want to put 3 points in Focused Attacks for the Energy Regen, or in Deadened Nerves for the damage mitigation? Or maybe in Find Weakness for extra damage. Or I could put them in Improved Kidney Strike since we try to burn down an opponent while he is locked up, and that would also help with my Boomkin teammate's damage.
Do I skip all 4 and put them in Dual Wield Specialization for better Mutilates and make a 41/5/25 build? Do I take them out of Heightened Senses (very situational) and put them in Quick Recovery? But in those situations when I do need HS, it would mean almost certain death to not have it. Do I want the extra Combo Point from Initiative, which I am only going to use once per fight, or do I want the ArmPen from Serrated Blades?
The great part about it is, there is not necessarily a right or wrong answer to any of those questions. So much is dependant upon your playstyle, your arena composition, your gear (is your resilience enough that you don't need the extra damage mitigation?) and so on.
All talent choices should be like that. You should always be left wondering: "did I make the right choice?"
Compare that to the 51/18/2 Raiding build that all Mutilate Spec Rogues are rocking now. They are all EXACTLY the same.
The difference is in the utility talents. Utility becomes much more important in a PvP environment. Bringing a little of that flavor to a PvE build is, therefore, a good thing. That is why Blizz has basically required the use of PvP talents in PvE builds.
I would also like to see the 31 point minimum dropped to about a 25 or so. Messing around with hybrid builds, though usually not very successful, is an extremely entertaining way to waste a few hours on a Saturday.
DeathPaladin Aug 7th 2010 11:23PM
In my personal glossary, a talent tree is bloated if, after picking up all "mandatory" talents, you have little to no points left over for your secondary trees (each player has a different tolerance, for me personally a tree typically feels bloated if I have less than 5 points for secondary trees).
Survival before one of the more recent builds and pre-Holy Power Retribution are two trees I would have labeled as bloated. As of now, I don't know if I would consider any spec truly bloated, but I haven't been keeping a very close eye on classes where I don't at least have a semi-active character.
zdave Aug 8th 2010 12:22AM
@Avan: Mobs dispelling debuffs: you ever run BC heroics? Not only did they dispel, some were immune to certain schools of magic (mostly shadow and nature). So my guess (and I'm pretty good at detecting these things, mind you) is we'll be seeing more magical resistant mobs and maybe some dispeling mobs even. I think that would be awesome, personally.
@Naithin: Yeah! All those choices...exactly! Pick your favorite one with absolutely zero repurcussions! I didn't really pick it up from your post, but don't you think that's at least a little fun? But it's funny you chose the arcane tree because it looks like they have the most of those type of talents, fire coming in second, and frost a distant third. I mean, damn, all those frost talents look incredible. I'd take a 5/0/36 build for pvp only leaving out Ice Shards and Enduring Winter. I don't know if that's what they mean by 'bloat', but maybe.
Naithin Aug 8th 2010 1:22AM
@zdave:
These choices can be fun indeed, I just don't think they quite match up to the epicosity we were lead to believe was incoming from the initial posting regarding the 31 pt talents.
The other problem I have is that there isn't a huuuge deal of room for actually picking them up. At all.
For instance, here is what I would consider a reasonably complete Arc Mage spec:
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=ZwcM2KYL.9sm.mage
I've gone 2/2 Incanters Absorption, and for some fights, that might be useless freeing those points up, but I have a feeling more often than not it'd be a desirable talent for output.
Even assuming it isn't though, you can freely remove one point from it, but then the other point has to be spent in one of the other talents before you can get to Arcane Power.
End result? Assuming I'm right about Incanter's Absorption, you have 1 talent to spend around those 'fun' talents. A single talent point. If I'm wrong, you have 3 points which is better, and probably fits within the reasonable realm of having to make an actual decision on the matter. But for many of the talents, that means you get precisely one, one option out of the four (five if you count IA as optional).
Not sure about you, but that strikes me as a little harsh. Even 2/5 would have been better by a wide margin.
Still! It's a far cry better than the first iterations of the 31 pt trees, and we're still going to get many more passes yet, so there is still a good chance things will improve even further. :)
Noyou Aug 8th 2010 1:40AM
Very well stated. I will take it a step further and ask this: Why not let them spend the points where you want and- if you don't spend the 31 in the same tree you don't get that trees signature talents. This to me seems like it would end the discussion right there. It would probably be a watered down build but it has to come with some price and to the individual using the tree utility/fun would be their objective.
zdave Aug 8th 2010 1:52AM
I see you also took 2/2 Invocation and 2/2 Nether Vortex, in addition to IA. These all do have some impact on your dps, albeit situationally. And those 6 points are your choices: do you want situational dps boosts, movement (imp blink), prismatic cloak for threat drop, or imp counterspell and sheep for CC? Check out all that stuff.
Personally, and I raid as frost so I really can't say, I'd take imp blink (2pts), 2/3 cloak, and 2/2 counterspell. That just seems like a good combo of survivability and control, which makes more sense (again: to me) than situational minor dps boosts. Of course that's the reason I play frost - for the control.
But, you took the dps boosters and that makes sense too. Who doesn't love more dps? I think that's really the best part of more choices for talents: people can't berate you for you decisions. Who can argue that Imp Counterspell is a -better- talent than IA?
zdave Aug 8th 2010 1:55AM
Oh, and about the promised epic-ness: give it time. These trees show a lot of promise and they aren't done yet.
Naithin Aug 8th 2010 3:06AM
@zdave
I will definitely grant you that Nether Vortex and Invocation are situational, but neither are minor. Of course, in the instance of Nether Vortex, the situational aspect may become so small as to be completely unworthwhile to ever take it other than while solo questing, unless they do something really funky to tanks that cause one or more of the tank types to either lose their slows or de-incentivise them taking the talents (for the ones like Pally that have to talent for it).
Invocation though may fall into disuse on the odd fight, but it seems even most bosses I've encountered so far have some ability that can and should be interrupted. Of course, if this doesn't carry over into Cata raiding; may have to revisit this one as well. But assuming it persists right the way through - and I believe it will - this while technically situational will nearly always be a really quite significant DPS increase.
Of course, it's really difficult to say any of this with any certainty even with being in beta. So much may yet change, we haven't seen all the bosses that'll be available in dungeons let alone any of the raid ones, but at the very least I'll grant you that Nether Vortex is probably really quite dropable when discussing endgame/group specs, I had overlooked that one. :)