Shifting Perspectives: A peek at the beta bear

Hail, druids. I've had another week in the beta, and my main's now level 82. While I would love to tell you that all of the bugs we talked about last week have been tracked down and eliminated; that's not the case, so I'm not sure that a big analytical article on abilities that Blizzard's by no means finished with is a great use of our time. But I did tank a very successful Blackrock Caverns run, and Ghostcrawler (lead systems designer) recently wrote something interesting about the future of AoE tanking, so today's post is going to take a quick peek at how bears are developing.
Also, there's a great quest in Mount Hyjal where you throw bears off a tree, which naturally I recorded. It recorded upside down for some reason, so I'll have to figure out how to flip it before it gets posted.

Tanking on a bear feels like it's turning in the direction of protection warrior tanking, which is a good thing, but I'm not sure how close Blizzard is to being done with the tree. As such, don't take this as anything other than a few observations specific to the current beta build, and a limited few at that. The dungeon finder's broken at the moment, so groups aren't as easy to get.
How good is Pulverize?
Pulverize, on the outside, is a pretty sweet deal. It provides instant threat, an indirect threat buff in the form of additional crit, additional Savage Defense uptime and -- for now -- more rage generation, although that's likely to be changed (which means Primal Fury in its current form won't survive). But it does have a problem, and that's that it turns Lacerate into something within shouting distance of the current incarnation of Swipe. In other words, it's a skill that you wind up spamming, not because you want to, but because you kind of have to. And Lacerate is a much clumsier tool than Swipe for that purpose.

So yeah. I don't know what's going to happen with that. Maybe having the best buff active all the time isn't important and we're not being balanced around it. Maybe Blizzard wants you to choose between getting Pulverize or having a Lacerate stack running. It's also possible that Blizzard intends for the AoE bleed provided by Thrash to take the place of the threat/rage/Savage Defense drip you'd be getting if you'd spread a few Lacerates around a pull instead. But my assumption going into this expansion is that Blizzard is doing its best to get druid tanks away from the one- and two-button spam that's infested 5-man tanking, and Pulverize doesn't feel like a good fit for that.

Whatever the skill you'd want to ask about, you can take it as an article of faith that it's not hitting very hard right now. I don't know how much of this is intended behavior due to the presence of Vengeance and how much of it is Blizzard still working on talents and abilities behind the scenes. I recorded some trash pulls and boss fights in Blackrock Caverns with the user interface active to show readers exactly what you can expect to see, and I hope to get that flipped around and posted this week. As a short gloss, I'm seeing Swipes in the 200-300 range, Mangles in the 1,200 to 3,000 range, Thrash around the 100-170 range, etc.

It's really, really great after an extended period of time getting hit ... which is kind of frustrating because it'd be doing you a lot more good earlier than that. I think Vengeance has a ton of potential; the idea behind it solves the problems caused by DPS threat outscaling tank threat as gear improves. But it doesn't seem to be helping much so far because:
- Tank damage is really low right now (the yellow 109 you're seeing in the picture below is a Thrash, by the way), and Vengeance doesn't seem to stack very quickly. It's not making a real difference at the start of a pull when you need it the most.
- By the time it starts making a difference to the amount of damage you're doing, most of the pull is already dead.

The end result is that, because Vengeance takes so long to ramp up, skills in the early part of a pull lack the meaty, reassuring smack of a big damage boost on mobs itching to go elsewhere.

Mein Gott! Can we even hold threat against a group in a 5-man?
You absolutely can. If you're already in the habit of tab-targeting around mobs to spread love taps around (BC and classic tanking habits are hard to break), it won't take you that long to make the transition to Cataclysm tanking. Just budget a few pulls to learn how best to spend your GCDs. You will almost certainly find yourself repeating requests to your DPS not to go nuts at the start of a pull, however. Frankly I think the more pressing issue concerning threat in 5-mans right now is simply that groups are too accustomed to AoEing everything down with the benefit of massive early tank threat, and it's going to take a while to train players out of the behavior.
There's a lot more that I'd like to add here, but before doing so I'd like to figure out why my video capture's gone haywire and correct it; I'd much prefer to discuss how Swipe's new cooldown is working with some convenient video.
Every week, Shifting Perspectives treks across Azeroth in pursuit of truth, beauty and insight concerning the druid class. Sometimes it finds the latter, or something good enough for government work. Whether you're a bear, cat, moonkin, tree or stuck in caster form, you'll find the skinny on druid changes in patch 3.3, a look at the disappearance of the bear tank, and thoughts on why you should be playing the class (or why not).Filed under: Druid, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Lïasha Aug 10th 2010 11:55PM
Maybe they could add a glyph where Pulverize wouldn't remove the stacks of laceration.
Like the glyph of Swiftmend where it doesn't remove the rejuvenation or regrowth HOT.
Manadar Aug 11th 2010 5:34AM
That would make it just another button to press everytime the buff is about to run out.
I tried tanking quite a lot on beta, and having to keep track of your lacerate stacks AND pulverize while tanking some fights and pulls is really hard. Lowering the stack size to 3 or making pulverize only consume 2-3 stacks if it stays at 5 would be a nice change.
PeeWee Aug 11th 2010 6:06AM
Not removing the 5 stacks completely would be imba as hell, but maybe only consume a single stack instead?
Or have Glyph of Lacerate make each application pop 2 stacks, like the sunder one?
lownwolf Aug 11th 2010 9:56AM
As far as vengeance goes, my understanding of it is that it's not really meant to be extremely powerful in 5-mans.
In a discussion about vengeance and prot warriors, GC said vengeance isn't supposed to help you build snap agro, it's supposed to help in those situations where it's a long fight and the dps is slowly creeping up on your threat.
So, I don't know if it's necessarily fair to analyze the mechanics of vengeance based on quest mobs, or fast 5man pulls.
In a perfect sandbox situation, with a perfect threat rotation, a bear will be building the same amount of threat as a constant (not counting procs). Bears can increase that threat for a short period by using berserk. Vengeance simply gives us another tool to have a threat ramp up.
Also, i'm sure there will be a glyph of pulverize or something to modify the way it removes our lacerate. It may seem imba to not to remove the stack at all, but how is glyph of swiftmend not imba then?
Feezee Aug 11th 2010 1:18PM
"Vengeance doesn't seem to stack very quickly. It's not making a real difference at the start of a pull when you need it the most."
That is the way it is intended to work, its for prolonged fights, not snap aggro.
GC said:
"It's designed to be more of a long term mechanic such that it slowly builds and slowly falls off."
and
"Don't think of Vengeance in terms of burst threat or Shield Slams. Think of it in terms of autoattacks over the long haul. In a fight like Yogg, Vengeance isn't what it going to make the difference between grabbing an add quickly. That's what Shield Slam is for. Vengeance is for a long fight, like those boss fights where the lock or the Fury warrior starts to creep up on your threat (particularly in the absence of Tricks of the Trade and Misdirect)."
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26435173840/not-understanding-vengeance/
Jabadabadana Aug 18th 2010 3:42AM
Creeps up on our what now?
Tanking involves out-threating your dps.
If you can do that at all, you will slowly creep farther and farther ahead of your dps, not the other way around. Once initial cooldown phase is over, it gets even easier. Even if MD and ToT aren't there for you, it will be the initial 30 seconds that decide if you have agro issues or not. Threat will be even more steady w/o them, meaning there will be no creep. DPS drops over time as cd's run out and evens as ramp is established and maintained.
GC is referring to something that doesn't exist under current mechanics, and unless dps have some sort of slowly gain dps/threat mechanic, this simply won't exist. People may push your threat the whole time. In which case, vengeance may make some difference to keep you ahead. That's not creep however, that's your dps being able to out-threat you, and hopefully trying to not actually succeed.
lownwolf Aug 18th 2010 10:41AM
@Jabadabadana:
This is an incorrect assumption. As I stated in my initial post, under the perfect conditions a tank will continue to make the same threat from the start of the fight, all through to the end (not including any offensive CD's your class has).
DPS has a lot of different factors that will affect their overall threat. Not to mention a LOT of classes have a ramp up time, therefore they'll be doing more dps and gaining more threat over time. I state this as a "matter of fact" just because it is, go play a Spriest and see.
DPS also has trinkets aimed at increasing dps, whereas tanks (normally) save their trinket slots for survivability (as opposed to dps/threat). So even if DPS and the Tank decide to pop trinkets at the same time, the dps will be gaining more threat, but the tank will not be gaining any more threat than at the start of the fight.
It is these kind of situations that vengeance will help out in, and they are not imaginary situations.
Basically I see it as this. If you have agro problems in the first 30 seconds, you need to work on your threat rotation or your dps heavily outgears you. But, most tanks will have agro issues over longer fights as DPS has more time to burn CD's and take advantage of procs. There are 2 solutions, dps watches their own threat or you get a mechanic that builds your threat overtime (vengeance).
spamofchaz Aug 11th 2010 12:13PM
I prefer mouseover-targeting to tab-targeting myself. When I tab, it never seems to pop up on the target I need (the one with out the lacerate). Instead, they tend to switch between the two mobs that have it while the third skips merrily towards the mage.
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing sometimes.
lownwolf Aug 18th 2010 10:44AM
I use a combination of both. And if you're tanking you should get Tidy Plates and Threat Plates, which will make it extremely easy to click the mob that is running towards your mage, the visual cue that you lost agro is also extremely helpful.
However, in an aoe pack, i tab through them constantly watching their targets, as I also try to make sure i'm not taunting off other tanks.
STARF Aug 11th 2010 12:52PM
A few things you may want to check out and edit for this post.
A) are you using any of the WTLK tanking items such as cloak, rings and trinks with high stam, and str
B) IF you are doing 3k damage in Cat form with your current gear on the live server, then you will likely be doing a two thirds that maybe in bearform on the live server, and unless you have replace all of your gear in the beta with new greens and blues, you will likely still see small hits on mobs that are lvl 80+.
C) What is the cooldown on Pulverize, I didn't see it in the tool tip, if its spamable, then hell i wouldn't worry about lacerate as much as you think, just tab pulveriz+maul.
Im not on the beta but those are a few questions i have for ya if you can answer. and i agree, BC tanking habits die hard, but worked for me in 5 man heroics in WTLK.
Armill3 Aug 11th 2010 5:10PM
Might it have something to do with them "fixing" feral attack power instead?
STARF Aug 16th 2010 9:41AM
thats a good point. so it will be even more important to wear agi gear in the expansion.
CDave Aug 12th 2010 7:36PM
Ummmm did everyone else miss the picture of DEATHWING FLYING OVER LAVA??? No offense, but skip Druids for a moment, I wanna know more about THAT!
danschulz97 Aug 28th 2010 10:59PM
They really need to town down the color of the troll druid/cat forms.
xazais Aug 28th 2010 11:01PM
Agreed^