The Daily Blues

In which a worthy read and QQ join under a common crab.
Table of contents
Ghostcrawler
Ghostcrawler -- A very worthwhile read.Quote:
Our job here isn't to effect change in the classes. When you sit down to write a post with that in mind, the likelihood that you will end up disappointed is many orders of magnitude higher than the likelihood that you won't. Your real job here is to tell the devs things you like and things you don't like about the game, and about proposed changes. They then take that feedback and use it to inform their decisions. This is our function here.
You can approach that function in many ways. Personally, I approach things in a very layered approach, stretching from the most detailed to the most abstract. So, my approach is generally like so:
1) Explain things I do/don't like
2) Try to explain why at a low level (e.g., specific mechanical issues)
3) Try to explain at a higher level (e.g., "I'm frustrated with the lack of connection between elem gameplay and the elem name/image/theme/kit.")
4) Try to provide explanations of my feelings that apply to intuition (e.g., the oft-used "Basically, elem feels too much like 'improved shaman', and that makes it very hard to identify with the kit")
5) Lastly, provide suggested fixes to the problems I outline in 1-4. Difference is, I do this not to give the devs ideas (though if that happens, great). Ideas are easy to come by. I provide suggestions because it shows another angle of what the problem exactly is, by saying what I though would ameliorate the problem.
Another style of post I do which is a bit tangential to the above is trying to discuss things with others, so that I may better understand their issues, and then provide the above suite of post styles to help them articulate it. I also try to get it to go the other way, and see if other players have the same issues I do, because that provides me with a sense of what I need to try and explain most fervently.
As a result, I can't really ever feel that my time here is wasted. I provide 31 flavors of feedback and try to facilitate community discussion. If I came here trying to get my pet solutions implemented, I would be extremely disappointed every day, because the list of things I would have on my plate as a dev of this game would be very long indeed. (Not that the current path is so bad, just that different devs have different views)
So tl;dr: Maybe re-think why you post here, and figure out if it's just going to frustrate you forever.
Our job here isn't to effect change in the classes. When you sit down to write a post with that in mind, the likelihood that you will end up disappointed is many orders of magnitude higher than the likelihood that you won't. Your real job here is to tell the devs things you like and things you don't like about the game, and about proposed changes. They then take that feedback and use it to inform their decisions. This is our function here.
You can approach that function in many ways. Personally, I approach things in a very layered approach, stretching from the most detailed to the most abstract. So, my approach is generally like so:
1) Explain things I do/don't like
2) Try to explain why at a low level (e.g., specific mechanical issues)
3) Try to explain at a higher level (e.g., "I'm frustrated with the lack of connection between elem gameplay and the elem name/image/theme/kit.")
4) Try to provide explanations of my feelings that apply to intuition (e.g., the oft-used "Basically, elem feels too much like 'improved shaman', and that makes it very hard to identify with the kit")
5) Lastly, provide suggested fixes to the problems I outline in 1-4. Difference is, I do this not to give the devs ideas (though if that happens, great). Ideas are easy to come by. I provide suggestions because it shows another angle of what the problem exactly is, by saying what I though would ameliorate the problem.
Another style of post I do which is a bit tangential to the above is trying to discuss things with others, so that I may better understand their issues, and then provide the above suite of post styles to help them articulate it. I also try to get it to go the other way, and see if other players have the same issues I do, because that provides me with a sense of what I need to try and explain most fervently.
As a result, I can't really ever feel that my time here is wasted. I provide 31 flavors of feedback and try to facilitate community discussion. If I came here trying to get my pet solutions implemented, I would be extremely disappointed every day, because the list of things I would have on my plate as a dev of this game would be very long indeed. (Not that the current path is so bad, just that different devs have different views)
So tl;dr: Maybe re-think why you post here, and figure out if it's just going to frustrate you forever.
A very worthwhile read.
Specificity is good. (Brevity generally is too.)
Good: "Lightning Bolt isn't improved by enough talents so as a result, it does too little damage given its cast time."
Less helpful: I'm not sure why, but I don't like Lightning Bolt."
Even less helpful: "I want a new spell because mages just got one."
Not helpful: "I feel neglected."
Ghostcrawler -- This is QQ, though.Quote:
its fairly easy to be discouraged as a DK right now considering most other classes have had extensive work done, and id like to keep this thread free from QQ.
its fairly easy to be discouraged as a DK right now considering most other classes have had extensive work done, and id like to keep this thread free from QQ.
This is QQ, though. If you have specific concerns, bring them up. I can't turn around and tell the other class designers "DKs don't feel that their class is done." They will look at me with blank stares until I give them more to go on.
Quote:
While GC posts do bring trolls into decent threads occasionally, no dev response at all to reasonable shaman posts when other reasonable posts get responses leads to a group of people who love their class and want it fixed, but don't see any positive influence from the devs towards their thoughts and discussions. Which in turn, mounts further bitterness atop an already large pile... nay, mountain of depression that shaman feel.
While GC posts do bring trolls into decent threads occasionally, no dev response at all to reasonable shaman posts when other reasonable posts get responses leads to a group of people who love their class and want it fixed, but don't see any positive influence from the devs towards their thoughts and discussions. Which in turn, mounts further bitterness atop an already large pile... nay, mountain of depression that shaman feel.
GC's bosses: "Hmm. GC can't seem to be everywhere at once, and players get upset when he can't do so. Maybe it's better if we return to the forums of yore when nobody had the expectation of a blue post."
Ghostcrawler -- Holy priest level 10 spellThe new Holy level 10 spell is pretty simple, but it also has a lot of play with Chakra. I am just pointing this out, because many players never noticed the talent that made the old Holy level 10 (Desperate Prayer) into a tool that could heal others.
Other
Zarhym -- Constructive feedbackQuote:
I have 3 healing main characters in Live (Shaman, Druid, Priest). In the beta, I've only tried healing instances on my druid and it is a HORRIBLE experience. It's worse than pre-BC. I understand the intent is to make us more aware of our mana, and that mana is not an unending resource, and that we need to better manage that resource. But going OOM after 2 trash packs is annoying. So, not only do our healing spells cost a crap-ton of mana, but they don't heal for anymore than they did at 80, and everybody in the group is now taking TONS more damage and has 2 to 3 times the hit points they had in WOTLK.
If you really expect people to enjoy healing why would you basically force them to sit and drink for up to 30 seconds, effectively "stopping their flow of gameplay"? What was fun about healing in WOTLK and BC was that you were constantly doing something, whether it be healing or helping DPS on easy trash. But now we have to juggle between all these healing spells while watching our mana like a hawk. Make a few wrong decisions and youre OOM. There's not much room for error.
I cannot see myself playing a healer when Cata comes out if healing will be like it currently is. Sure, I will still play WoW, but I will be DPS'ing...something that is much less stressful (shouldn't be any stress in a game). I'm fine with that, but Blizz is making all these changes to the game to make it easier for newcomers to pick up and play....well, nothin easy about healing as it currently stands. I can only guess healers will become even MORE of a commodity than they currently are as people get annoyed/fed up and just play something else, whether its a diff. class/spec, or game.
ok, /rant off. But There is some constructive feedback in there...healing is stressful/annoying due to constant mana watching and requiring "too much" thought to pick the right spell for the right situation.
I have 3 healing main characters in Live (Shaman, Druid, Priest). In the beta, I've only tried healing instances on my druid and it is a HORRIBLE experience. It's worse than pre-BC. I understand the intent is to make us more aware of our mana, and that mana is not an unending resource, and that we need to better manage that resource. But going OOM after 2 trash packs is annoying. So, not only do our healing spells cost a crap-ton of mana, but they don't heal for anymore than they did at 80, and everybody in the group is now taking TONS more damage and has 2 to 3 times the hit points they had in WOTLK.
If you really expect people to enjoy healing why would you basically force them to sit and drink for up to 30 seconds, effectively "stopping their flow of gameplay"? What was fun about healing in WOTLK and BC was that you were constantly doing something, whether it be healing or helping DPS on easy trash. But now we have to juggle between all these healing spells while watching our mana like a hawk. Make a few wrong decisions and youre OOM. There's not much room for error.
I cannot see myself playing a healer when Cata comes out if healing will be like it currently is. Sure, I will still play WoW, but I will be DPS'ing...something that is much less stressful (shouldn't be any stress in a game). I'm fine with that, but Blizz is making all these changes to the game to make it easier for newcomers to pick up and play....well, nothin easy about healing as it currently stands. I can only guess healers will become even MORE of a commodity than they currently are as people get annoyed/fed up and just play something else, whether its a diff. class/spec, or game.
ok, /rant off. But There is some constructive feedback in there...healing is stressful/annoying due to constant mana watching and requiring "too much" thought to pick the right spell for the right situation.
For all intents and purposes, we don't consider it constructive feedback just because you followed the Code of Conduct and didn't call us names. This is a beta test, so generalized feedback about how and (vaguely) why healing is not fun -- when we haven't even reached the level cap in the test process -- doesn't give us actionable feedback.
There are a few things to consider here:
1) Healers don't play in beta quite like they do in Wrath of the Lich King. Yes, the system is designed to be less forgiving so that the heal you choose to cast, or how often you choose to heal your party or top off their health bars, should be a more meaningful decision.
2) Numbers are still being balanced, bugs are still being worked out with each new build, and we're still iterating upon individual spells and abilities.
3) The whole group could be approaching a dungeon like they do in Wrath, trying to pull as many packs of mobs as possible to charge through it. This isn't Wrath, nor are players or creatures balanced around Wrath numbers.
4) As an expansion of my first point, you might be making bad choices.
If you'd like to give us constructive feedback we can take with us to the drawing board, give us scenarios. Tell us what rotations you're using, the group make-up, whether you're using CC or AoE, a play-by-play of specific pulls or boss fights, etc. We want to know what the specific cases are where you are being as conservative as possible and still finding it to be a struggle, or even just too frustrating. We can look into that type of data.
The basic premise of this post speaks to all feedback on these forums. Not only do generalized complaints do very little to give us areas on which to focus testing, you're actually accomplishing the opposite of what you're trying to. You're making it more difficult for us to implement changes and then get technical breakdowns from testers in order to keep this a civil, constructive environment where we can better iterate upon areas of concern based on real data.
These forums should not be used like the live forums tend to be, folks. If we can't get adequate and detailed reports from players about their experiences while testing, we'll need to find more players willing to work with us in this regard.
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Celeane Aug 20th 2010 5:34PM
Well, on one hand, they want feedback on how things feel, and on the other, if you don't feel positive you can go DIAF. The beta forums have been glowing over the healing changes, but everyone I see outside of those forums has huge concerns and finds things not at all fun. I'm delighted that someone spoke up at all, and discouraged (again) beyond belief that they quashed him like that. I'm a priest for crying out loud, and I can't handle it if both party and tank are taking damage at once.
Some of our largest concerns: None of the heals hit hard enough. The pacing is not fun compared to what we're used to in Wrath. Damage is still spiky, but we now have a eyedropper to heal it back up with. We don't scale well so far. A good healer in a bad group is still going to fail. I haven't even had mana problems, I have puny heals problems.
So is this new, fun type of healing going to drag people away from dpsing to replace all of us who don't like it anymore?
Peary Carlson Aug 20th 2010 4:24PM
Are you talking on live or beta that your have trouble healing the tank and dps? I play a priest as well and you shouldnt have any problems multi-tasking. With several instant and AoE heals it has never been a problem. You might just not have enough spellpower if your heals arent hitting hard enough. :)
Hanak Aug 20th 2010 9:17AM
GC: "If we can't get adequate and detailed reports from players about their experiences while testing, we'll need to find more players willing to work with us in this regard."
... ouch!
But it's good that he reminds people that beta-testing is there to accomplish a goal (get the game in shape) and not a finished product to be enjoyed without obligations.
theRaptor Aug 20th 2010 9:43AM
This is the one major complaint I have about Blizzard. They are way too lax on disciplining the forums and creating a culture of useful feedback. 90% of beta posters would end up banned if they pulled this crap on the EvE:Online feedback forums.
Due to the idiots not being visibly punished most of the good posters go to external forums. Blizzard need to remember that forums and betas are a privilege and ban players who abuse them.
Mike Aug 20th 2010 10:32AM
*cough cough* not GC *cough*
V Magius Aug 20th 2010 10:36AM
For some of the repeat offenders, I think they should be removed from the beta completely. It appears GC has told many of them how to give constructive criticism that will help build a better game.
It would also be kind of funny to hear about people who can't log into the beta anymore and receive a form email:
:
Thank you for your participation in the World of Warcraft: Cataclysm beta. It has come to our attention one or more of the following:
-You have not logged into the beta in ___ days.
-You have not provided any feedback on any quests in ___ hours of play.
-You are only able to post QQ on the forums.
-Ghostcrawler hates you.
-You play and we favor
-Mrghlllghh!
As such, with great pleasure, we have decided your services are no longer required, and you are no longer required in the beta. Thank you.
V Magius Aug 20th 2010 11:52AM
Edit: forgot about brackets in a posts cause that part to show up.
(Account holder):
Thank you for your participation in the World of Warcraft: Cataclysm beta. It has come to our attention one or more of the following:
-You have not logged into the beta in ___ days.
-You have not provided any feedback on any quests in ___ hours of play.
-You are only able to post QQ on the forums.
-Ghostcrawler hates you.
-You play (faction/class/race) and we favor (other faction/class/race)
-Mrghlllghh!
Cale Aug 20th 2010 9:23AM
Love the Daily Blues - thx for collecting and posting them.
Please note that the last GC comment seems to be about Holy Priests (Desperate Prayer/Chakra) rather than Holy Paladins.
Cale Aug 20th 2010 9:25AM
Doh! Seems Dorkii beat me to the click.
Asdafer Aug 20th 2010 9:34AM
On the quality of testing - I agree that people see beta's as a chance to play the game for free early.
But to get away form that you do not build forums but proper bug/change request reporting. GC outlined exactly what data they would like to see. Build a form for capturing these and you'll get what you need.
Simples.
Hanak Aug 20th 2010 10:09AM
The problem with forms is that they are rigid. Unless you manage to think of every possible type of feedback in advance, some of the good feedback wont fit into the form. Testers with an interest to report problems can adapt GCs outline when they make their posts. That's why free-form writing is better for personal bug-reports and automatic machine-gathering gets to do the job of collecting numbers and quantifiable data.
SamLowry Aug 20th 2010 11:01AM
But they should also allow feedback on every aspect of the beta.
One of the writers here a few weeks ago described a series of quests in the beta and noted that the most irritating of the lot--involving a vehicle interface, too--did not give the option of a reply when just about every other quest did. This gives the appearance that Blizzard has either gathered all the data they think they need, or, most likely, they've gathered nothing but complaints and shut off the phone so they wouldn't have to hear any more.
quasarsglow Aug 20th 2010 9:50AM
I don't know if its just me, but the stuff that the blues are responding to this whole week has seemed to be little more than whingy complaints.
I'm glad the blues have more patience than me cause I'd likely be saying something like "If you are here to complain unconstructively, you go on my magical /ignore list."
I mean after a point, posters are just wasting time and, imho, trolling for a reason to .. ahem "QQ moar".
Hrothgar Aug 20th 2010 10:11AM
Given the nature of the qualifications for tester, the beta opt-in should include a way to post resume like information of previous testing experiences. Part of my IRL job requires me to establish, maintain and also use standardized testing procedures for software in an enterprise environment. I could probably be persuaded to participate in the Cataclysm Beta if I thought that my efforts and skills in standardized testing and documentation would be useful.
But I didn't opt in just because most of the people that are TESTING this are not qualified. But, there is no way for Blizzard to distinguish the slack-jawed, mouth-breathing half-wit from the normal person. All the while, what they obviously need are people with a modicum of education and the ability to string more than 3 mono-syllabic words together into a comprehensive sentence.
Posting in the test forums "Shamans in Cataclysm suck." is as useful as saying "I made poop in my pants." If that is all you can come up with, go find the smartest person you know (other than your mom), who also plays WoW and give them your Beta key. Then, go back to spamming ANAL in trade chat.
Killik Aug 20th 2010 10:25AM
You could make the point that a lot of the people they're producing this game for are "slack-jawed, mouth-breathing half-wits". Therefore, who better to test it (aside from the fact that they struggle to give coherent feedback).
Onebaddude Aug 20th 2010 10:38AM
It should be a requirement that after every quest chain, a field pops up in the beta that lets testers input data both in a check the box style and with a field for comments. There will always be hundreds of poorly thought out comments on forums and in beta testing. It will be hard for Blizzard to find the diamonds in the rough. The good part of a check the box from one to ten form, wdould be to see how finished or how smooth a quest chain felt, you would still be getting some usefully data.
SamLowry Aug 20th 2010 11:06AM
There usually is, but as I noted elsewhere on this topic they've shut it off for some of the quests.
rulez Aug 20th 2010 10:16AM
If the ingame feedback and bug tool would not be bugged I'm sure they would receive more constructive feedback.
When going to the forums with the intend to report a bug or give feedback, I do a search first before posting and in 99% of the cases the same was posted already, so I refrain from posting. In the cases I have unique feedback on something I don't want to post on the forums either, as I am not interested other players opinions or even trolling attempts.
jorge_av Aug 20th 2010 10:37AM
Thank you, that's how I feel. I like to go on the beta forums to see what's up but I'm not a fan of posting there. I really hate the "I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right" mentality. I cannot wait until the fix the bug/survey/feedback buttons.
Hal Aug 20th 2010 10:19AM
There's a talent that turns Desperate Prayer into a non-self heal? I didn't know that!