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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsDrama Mamas: Tank frustration
by Robin Torres 
Aug 27th 2010 at 1:00PM
/queue dramatic sporting event music
This week on Drama Mamas, the mamas duke it out for the title of Best Drama Buster! Who will win the battle for the most useful advice for a frustrated tank? Will it be Robin who thinks the tank should take a strong leadership role or Lisa who thinks that teamwork should be just that? Turn the page to read the Battle of the Drama Mamas.
Disclaimer: The mamas really just think people should choose the advice they think works best for them. We don't care about winning any battle. The previous paragraph is solely the result of overzealous introduction writing and too much caffeine.
Dear Drama Mamas,
I've recently been leveling up a tank and am starting to worry about my attitude toward the rest of my dungeon groups. I never really "got" all of the drama about the random dungeon finder until it started feeling like the fate of the group was on my shoulders. As the tank, I've got to lead the group through each instance, understand how to pull each room, decide how many mobs we can handle at a time, etc. It's a lot of responsibility, but I really enjoy it. It's a fun challenge after two years of only playing DPS.
That said, more and more, my patience for ... ummm ... imprecise or inconsiderate play has rapidly evaporated. At first, it was just when other players pulled mobs or packs of mobs. Then it moved to people rolling need on lock boxes ... posting their DPS numbers ... blaming others for their own bad play. I run with a healer, and we kick with relish and impunity. Mamas, I am one small step from becoming the stereotypical diva tank!
Look, I realize that some of this has become over the top, but I do need to be able to pull the room correctly and there is a lot of fail in the random dungeon finder, especially where I am leveling (Outland). Help me put this game and role back into perspective before I turn into a complete jerk tank. Thanks!
Road to Nowhere
Drama Mama Robin: We got a lot of comments from tanks when we discussed Tank Entitlement about how they only get that way after much abuse. There is a big difference between culling the players who are making your job impossible and being the butt we described there. Road, you aren't suffering from TE, but more from Tank Frustration. The rest of your team should support you, not make your job harder. As usual, communication at the outset is key. I'm going to suggest a few things to say as soon as everyone is in the group. Change it to the voice you feel most comfortable with. I'm going for firm here. You soften it as you see fit. [Edited to add emphasis. I'm not saying to use the following words. I'm saying this is the information you want to convey. Do it the best way possible. Sheesh.]- "Hello and welcome to [insert dungeon name here]. My name is Road and I will be your tank. Buff up while I tell you the rules." This has the double benefit setting the rules and giving time to get/give buffs (a common complaint). If someone replies with gogogo, give them the choice to leave or be kicked. You don't need their kind here.
- "I am doing the pulling. If anyone else pulls, I'll initiate a votekick without further warning." If someone accidentally pulls, bend this rule. But you want to be clear at the outset that impatient DPS are not welcome.
- "I will pull according to healer readiness." A happy healer is a good healer.
- "Control your aggro. Wait for me to fully engage the mobs before you AoE." Capt. Obvious wishes this didn't have to be said.
- "Quickly roll need on everything you want. Negotiate trades during downtime." I see you don't follow this now and this is a controversial choice. But if you say it at the outset, everyone has the same expectations and there is no loot drama and few loot slowdowns.
- "If you don't agree with these rules, leave now so we can replace you." The hardcore funsuckers will still stay and not follow the rules just for the lulz, but you'll actually find that this will reduce the instances of that. If the immature find they don't have the audience and support for their antics, they'll often ride on your obviously experienced coattails and save it for the next, less well-led run.
Drama Mama Lisa: Hey, I love a firm hand -- but I can't say that I'm at all a fan of any single member's "taking over" a group. I also strongly suspect that taking a tough-guy stance may doom you to a vote-kick by groupmates who relish neither a tank as their boss nor a bossy tank. Might I offer some alternatives?
- "Hey guys. I'd like to make this a "real" run and be able to tank without having everything pulled off and AoEed to shreds. My healer buddy here prefers it, as well. Any objections to a straight-up group?" If only one or two other players object, feel free to reply, "Great, that's how we'll run then. Ready?" However, if all three others prefer a gogogo/AoE group, you're outnumbered; say good-bye and good luck, drop group and move on.
- "I'll handle the pulling." No aggressive directives, no threats, simply a matter-of-fact volunteering for a vital role that also clarifies group dynamics. If anybody else does pull, be ready with a reminder and a polite request to lay off.
- "Can we agree to roll quickly, no need rolls on anything you'll sell, and negotiate trades during downtime?" This establishes the ground rules without being heavy-handed -- oh, and you've also gotten on the record that you do expect there to be some downtime.
What I'm more concerned about is the tone you're setting for yourself and your groups. If you immediately seize control in your iron-fisted grip to establish yourself as an armor-clad tyrant, you're setting a pretty grim tone. Furthermore, heading into groups with gritted teeth makes it fairly unlikely that you (or anyone else) will have fun unless something truly remarkable manages to break the ice.
Robin and I have written plenty already about the drama that can be associated with dungeon finder randoms. If you're still uncertain what approach might feel best to you, read our past advice as well as the reader feedback:
- Agreeing to a loot scheme that works
- Constructive criticism in random groups
- Mismatched dungeon finder group goals
- The ugly results of boot-happy groups
Drama buster of the week
This week's drama buster is brought to you by Capt. Obvious. Don't queue for a random unless you are fully equipped, prepared and ready to play. You are responsible for all of your own consumables. Make sure your gear is repaired and the best you have available. And don't even think about queuing up while you suffer from rez sickness. People will be understandably upset at you if you show up unprepared. So avoid the drama by taking care of the details in between queues.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas@wow.com. Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 9)
Robin Torres Aug 27th 2010 1:34PM
Look at all the drama caused by a player rolling on an item he or she will actually use.
This is why 1) loot rules should be stated at the outset of all group activities and 2) Rolling need on what you want and working out trades later is the fastest way to handle looting in randoms.
To downvote and vilify someone who clearly didn't know "accepted" loot rules nor think them logical/fair just exacerbates the drama.
Hahahaha Aug 27th 2010 1:39PM
@mathew No he shouldn't.
If you go into a dungeon as a dps, ask if you can roll need on tanking/healing item. Same goes for every other role. Just because he can "use it" doesn't give him the right to need it. Roll need on the stuff related to your role in the dungeon unless the other person doesn't mind.
Methuus Aug 27th 2010 1:39PM
Well, the issue is that there are many players who believe that Main Spec (that is, the spec that you're in the dungeon as) should have priority over off spec even in 5man dungeons. On the other hand, there are many people who don't thing 5mans should work this way.
Neither group is right. It's just opinion on both sides. The game systems don't completely support either view. And the general consensus of the community hasn't really settled on either point of view.
You just had the bad luck to end up in a group where the other people had a different opinion on the matter than you and your husband did.
Jim Aug 27th 2010 1:49PM
In my battlegroup, in pugs, the role you are there as, tends to have priority over loot, its considered polite in my battle group to ask if you can need for off-spec. I know some people feel if you can use it need it, but my response is if you want tank gear, then pony up and tank the instance. I don't roll on dps gear while tanking and I would like others to not roll on tank gear while dpsing.
Black heart comes to mind, as other trinkets that people like to grab.
Dane Bramage Aug 27th 2010 1:41PM
you didn't say in your post if your hubby's main spec is tank? if so, then he has a right to need on it (tho i prolly would have said something about it before). if he doesn't have a tank spec, then yeah, prolly shouldn't have rolled on it.
i think it's typical to roll MS on the spec / role that you are currently running. if you are DPS, then you should roll need on DPS gear. if yer tankin... you get the picture. that's prolly not a universal rule, but it does have the effect of not getting you called a ninja and booted.
way too much drama about loot anyway. it dropped once, it'll drop again. get over it.
zippy Aug 27th 2010 1:42PM
It's fine for him to have rolled on the item; after all, he can use it!
It's also fine for the group to have kicked him, because if he actually had a viable tank spec, he should be tanking. Tanking is hard, if you want the gear queue up as one. Be a jerk - get dropped.
Xeph Aug 27th 2010 1:45PM
While MS > OS (or current spec > other spec as the case might be) is pretty much dead in random dungeons, many still consider it polite to either ask before you need on something for a different spec, or wait to see if the tank/healer/DPS needs it first.
DPS gear isn't so bad, but finding and getting healing or tanking gear can be a long exercise in frustration. Especially when one is tanking or healing, an upgrade drops, and a DPS rolls need on it and wins. Half the time the DPS doesn't even have an off-spec, they just want it if they ever decide to get one.
When it comes to loot, I often employ "how would I feel if I were in their shoes?" If the answer is annoyed or frustrated, I either pass on it or ask before rolling need. I'm also sympathetic to tanks gearing up having gone through that myself. Nothing stings more than some jerk calling you a bad tank for no reason, then going and needing a huge tank upgrade out from under you.
freyal Aug 27th 2010 1:48PM
Loot will always be a thorn in the side of any game which bases further progression on loot.
Most people in general believe that MS is greater than off spec. But in the days of dual spec, that is more a courtesy than any real expectation any more. I think both your husband, AND the group was in the wrong. Your husband, because he could of communicated earlier on that he was trying to gear up his tanking off spec and would be rolling on tanking gear if it dropped. And it was your groups error for kicking, without allowing your husband and the tank to talk it out. Your tank might of agreed to trade the item to the other person, or he might of agreed to pass on tank loot off next boss etc. They didn't really give him a chance to do that.
Having been screwed by being a tank which a dps takes my gear or been a dps whose taken another tank's gear. I can kind of say it cuts both ways and there really is no right or wrong way to do things, just a different person's perspective on "right". My only hard and fast rule when it comes to loot is this: If you need it, need it, otherwise pass or roll greed/de.
I think it's really only Ninjaing something if you need on something you don't need, when someone else does need it, just because you can. If you can use it, and you intend to use it, and it isn't just going to sit in your bank unused, or later vendored -- it's not ninjaing.
Sinnh Aug 27th 2010 1:54PM
Thanks for the responses guys, I honestly did not except to see so much agreement on an issue but you all give very sensible advice. anyway, we were flustered enough after that happened that since that run we always ask before needing even on items for our main spec. And after that run my husband said screw it, activated his tank spec, and never looked back...hmm maybe kicking him did serve a useful purpose lol
crschmidt Aug 27th 2010 2:10PM
In that situation, the best thing to do is to offer to trade the item to the tank.
In general, you should consider players to have priority for the items that they are current playing as, whether in a heroic dungeon or a raid, guild run or not. (In fact, guild runs will often use more complex loot systems that aren't dependent on MS/OS as such.)
However, because of the way loot is distributed -- and often sharded, if you don't roll need -- the best thing to do is to always roll need if you can use it, and then (If you'd like to be polite) to offer to trade the item to the person who needs it for their current spec.
In my experience, I have had very few players take me up on such offers for trades.
DavidC Aug 27th 2010 2:13PM
@Sinnh: "why the hate if a dk can clearly have a tank spec? "
Because the TANK is doing the work of Tanking and your Hubby is not. If your Hubby wanted TANK gear, he should TANK and earn it. Main Spec > Off Spec ... That's a pretty basic Social Norm when it comes to instances (both 5, 10 and 25) ... and by "Main Spec" that means the Spec you performing in the run. So yea ... don't steal other peoples gear.
It works both ways as well. Tanks generally don't steal DPS gear from the people doing the DPS.
Hrothgar Aug 27th 2010 2:24PM
My DK main spec is DPS but I'm building him a tank off-spec. If I'm running as DPS and a tank item drops, I ask the tank if he needs it and tell him I'm building a tank off-spec. If the tank says he needs it, I pass. If not, I need. That's just being polite.
It wasn't clear if your mate communicated before needing on the cape so if that is the case, yeah, I would have voted him off the island too.
Kuro Aug 27th 2010 2:34PM
At this point in the expansion, why do people nerd rage over 5man dungeon drops?
You're obviously using LFG, you're gonna run those dungeons 10-20-30 more times times to get gear that'll be replaced very very quickly. LFG has certain loot rules set up by blizzard based on classes who can use an item. If you don't like them, you can set up your own 5 man runs or try to socially engineer to fit your needs.
Yes, it can be dissapointing when the Warlock wins the MP5 ring or the DPS-DK gets the cloaking tank, but... it will drop again.
Jeremy Aug 27th 2010 2:45PM
MS > OS is a common courtesy approach that should be used in an instance or raid. Your husband should have asked the group if it was ok, stating that he had a tank spec as well. If the group as a whole, or the actual tank of the group protested, then he should pass (not passing would warrant the label of "ninja"). If he does not in fact have a tank spec, then yes he very much ninja'd it.
The best way, imo, to go about things is to roll "need" on items for the position you queued up for, and politely ask if its ok to roll on off spec gear. This limits drama. Not to mention, its just common courtesy. I pass on items all the time on my DK because I queue as dps, and an item drops that would help fill out my tank gear, but the tank needs it too. I wait, see if they rolled need, and if so pass. If they didn't I usually just ask to be polite and the group says Idc, sure go ahead, or something like that.
Jeremy Aug 27th 2010 2:51PM
WTB edit button lol.
Sinnh's original post should be voted UP UP UP. It was a simple question that most have a strong opinion about (including myself), but it doesn't deserve to be downranked.
Also, Sinnh sounds like the bad experience/negative response at the time did help! I do hope he enjoys the tanking though.
Muse Aug 27th 2010 4:08PM
I need on offspec gear when it drops, because that's what everyone else is doing as well. If I roll greed, there's a pretty good chance it's going to go to someone who has no use for it. If it turns out the healer/tank needs it more than I do (they're in mainspec, I'm gearing offspec) then I will trade it to them without protest as soon as the roll ends. I watch if the tank/healer needs it, but sometimes they're slower to roll. If you kick me for the need immediately after, guess what? I can't trade it.
jbodar Aug 27th 2010 4:41PM
@Muse
Rather than roll Need on OS Tank loot, I simply roll last and look how everyone else rolled. If the Tank rolled Greed then I'll announce that I'm Needing and do so. Much less BS that way, since I don't worry about having to negotiate trades or step on the Tanks' nuts. You're only taking the leftovers.
moonblaze Aug 27th 2010 5:33PM
There's no point to a "off-spec versus main spec" discussion because the loot tables are designed the fashion that there are 3 dps in the group and 1 tank and healer. That means for every third damage dealer drop, there's one for the tank and one for the healer. While you might have several choices to upgrade in one slot, the tanks or healers have 1 and rarely 2 item drops intended for them.
Alternatively, think of it this way: Priests can only use cloth. Paladins can use all 4 armor classes. Should Paladins still roll need and win cloth over Priests?
aashanaria Aug 27th 2010 6:40PM
@PictoKong: And then you have tanks who are wearing 18 pieces of heroic ICC25-level gear and still roll need on ilvl200 tank gear just because they're the tank and "the dps should be rolling on dps gear". We had a specimen in HCoS the other day who was wearing a 264 tank piece but rolled need against me (pally, prot OS) after I'd asked group if I could roll need for OS--and he was the first one who said yeah, go ahead.
Thoorin Aug 28th 2010 2:57PM
While you are right to think ms>os is usually confined to raids and guilds, same rule tends to be applied to all group activities, just with a modification of "need rolls only for the performed roles". In other words, you "need" roll only for the role you play in a given group. If you see something you'd like but it's for tank/dps/heals (strike out one you play from this list) you wait for the concerned class member to roll, and if no need rolls pop you are free to roll need explaining it's for your offspec.