Drama Mamas: Tank frustration
Drama Mamas Lisa Poisso and Robin Torres are experienced gamers and real-life mamas -- and just as we don't want our precious babies to be the ones kicking and wailing on the floor of the checkout lane next to the candy, neither do we want you to become known as That Guy on your realm.
/queue dramatic sporting event music
This week on Drama Mamas, the mamas duke it out for the title of Best Drama Buster! Who will win the battle for the most useful advice for a frustrated tank? Will it be Robin who thinks the tank should take a strong leadership role or Lisa who thinks that teamwork should be just that? Turn the page to read the Battle of the Drama Mamas.
Disclaimer: The mamas really just think people should choose the advice they think works best for them. We don't care about winning any battle. The previous paragraph is solely the result of overzealous introduction writing and too much caffeine.
Drama Mama Robin: We got a lot of comments from tanks when we discussed Tank Entitlement about how they only get that way after much abuse. There is a big difference between culling the players who are making your job impossible and being the butt we described there. Road, you aren't suffering from TE, but more from Tank Frustration. The rest of your team should support you, not make your job harder. As usual, communication at the outset is key. I'm going to suggest a few things to say as soon as everyone is in the group. Change it to the voice you feel most comfortable with. I'm going for firm here. You soften it as you see fit. [Edited to add emphasis. I'm not saying to use the following words. I'm saying this is the information you want to convey. Do it the best way possible. Sheesh.]
Drama Mama Lisa: Hey, I love a firm hand -- but I can't say that I'm at all a fan of any single member's "taking over" a group. I also strongly suspect that taking a tough-guy stance may doom you to a vote-kick by groupmates who relish neither a tank as their boss nor a bossy tank. Might I offer some alternatives?
What I'm more concerned about is the tone you're setting for yourself and your groups. If you immediately seize control in your iron-fisted grip to establish yourself as an armor-clad tyrant, you're setting a pretty grim tone. Furthermore, heading into groups with gritted teeth makes it fairly unlikely that you (or anyone else) will have fun unless something truly remarkable manages to break the ice.
Robin and I have written plenty already about the drama that can be associated with dungeon finder randoms. If you're still uncertain what approach might feel best to you, read our past advice as well as the reader feedback:
Drama buster of the week
This week's drama buster is brought to you by Capt. Obvious. Don't queue for a random unless you are fully equipped, prepared and ready to play. You are responsible for all of your own consumables. Make sure your gear is repaired and the best you have available. And don't even think about queuing up while you suffer from rez sickness. People will be understandably upset at you if you show up unprepared. So avoid the drama by taking care of the details in between queues.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas@wow.com.
/queue dramatic sporting event music
This week on Drama Mamas, the mamas duke it out for the title of Best Drama Buster! Who will win the battle for the most useful advice for a frustrated tank? Will it be Robin who thinks the tank should take a strong leadership role or Lisa who thinks that teamwork should be just that? Turn the page to read the Battle of the Drama Mamas.
Disclaimer: The mamas really just think people should choose the advice they think works best for them. We don't care about winning any battle. The previous paragraph is solely the result of overzealous introduction writing and too much caffeine.
Dear Drama Mamas,
I've recently been leveling up a tank and am starting to worry about my attitude toward the rest of my dungeon groups. I never really "got" all of the drama about the random dungeon finder until it started feeling like the fate of the group was on my shoulders. As the tank, I've got to lead the group through each instance, understand how to pull each room, decide how many mobs we can handle at a time, etc. It's a lot of responsibility, but I really enjoy it. It's a fun challenge after two years of only playing DPS.
That said, more and more, my patience for ... ummm ... imprecise or inconsiderate play has rapidly evaporated. At first, it was just when other players pulled mobs or packs of mobs. Then it moved to people rolling need on lock boxes ... posting their DPS numbers ... blaming others for their own bad play. I run with a healer, and we kick with relish and impunity. Mamas, I am one small step from becoming the stereotypical diva tank!
Look, I realize that some of this has become over the top, but I do need to be able to pull the room correctly and there is a lot of fail in the random dungeon finder, especially where I am leveling (Outland). Help me put this game and role back into perspective before I turn into a complete jerk tank. Thanks!
Road to Nowhere
- "Hello and welcome to [insert dungeon name here]. My name is Road and I will be your tank. Buff up while I tell you the rules." This has the double benefit setting the rules and giving time to get/give buffs (a common complaint). If someone replies with gogogo, give them the choice to leave or be kicked. You don't need their kind here.
- "I am doing the pulling. If anyone else pulls, I'll initiate a votekick without further warning." If someone accidentally pulls, bend this rule. But you want to be clear at the outset that impatient DPS are not welcome.
- "I will pull according to healer readiness." A happy healer is a good healer.
- "Control your aggro. Wait for me to fully engage the mobs before you AoE." Capt. Obvious wishes this didn't have to be said.
- "Quickly roll need on everything you want. Negotiate trades during downtime." I see you don't follow this now and this is a controversial choice. But if you say it at the outset, everyone has the same expectations and there is no loot drama and few loot slowdowns.
- "If you don't agree with these rules, leave now so we can replace you." The hardcore funsuckers will still stay and not follow the rules just for the lulz, but you'll actually find that this will reduce the instances of that. If the immature find they don't have the audience and support for their antics, they'll often ride on your obviously experienced coattails and save it for the next, less well-led run.
- "Hey guys. I'd like to make this a "real" run and be able to tank without having everything pulled off and AoEed to shreds. My healer buddy here prefers it, as well. Any objections to a straight-up group?" If only one or two other players object, feel free to reply, "Great, that's how we'll run then. Ready?" However, if all three others prefer a gogogo/AoE group, you're outnumbered; say good-bye and good luck, drop group and move on.
- "I'll handle the pulling." No aggressive directives, no threats, simply a matter-of-fact volunteering for a vital role that also clarifies group dynamics. If anybody else does pull, be ready with a reminder and a polite request to lay off.
- "Can we agree to roll quickly, no need rolls on anything you'll sell, and negotiate trades during downtime?" This establishes the ground rules without being heavy-handed -- oh, and you've also gotten on the record that you do expect there to be some downtime.
What I'm more concerned about is the tone you're setting for yourself and your groups. If you immediately seize control in your iron-fisted grip to establish yourself as an armor-clad tyrant, you're setting a pretty grim tone. Furthermore, heading into groups with gritted teeth makes it fairly unlikely that you (or anyone else) will have fun unless something truly remarkable manages to break the ice.
Robin and I have written plenty already about the drama that can be associated with dungeon finder randoms. If you're still uncertain what approach might feel best to you, read our past advice as well as the reader feedback:
- Agreeing to a loot scheme that works
- Constructive criticism in random groups
- Mismatched dungeon finder group goals
- The ugly results of boot-happy groups
Drama buster of the week
This week's drama buster is brought to you by Capt. Obvious. Don't queue for a random unless you are fully equipped, prepared and ready to play. You are responsible for all of your own consumables. Make sure your gear is repaired and the best you have available. And don't even think about queuing up while you suffer from rez sickness. People will be understandably upset at you if you show up unprepared. So avoid the drama by taking care of the details in between queues.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 9)
ggrooms Aug 27th 2010 1:21PM
Putting up macro's or rules like this fail because the dps take it as a challenge to see if you will follow through.
It is hard to negotiate, or even communicate, when the only thing the dps know how to say is "GoGoGoGoGo."
My advice would be to merely keep at it, grow thick skin to ignore most of the stupid. For the rest, let them die.
Redielin Aug 27th 2010 1:22PM
I have to say, I would not be too happy with a tank who is bossy out the gate. I think that worked better/was more important back in BC, when tanks were rarer and everyone needed to be on board with the plan each pull, but it comes off as condescending these days I think.
Same goes (or perhaps moreso) for DPS who try to tell you how to do your job. Maybe while leveling, and it is clear that the tank needs help, and both parties have a good attitude about it (same goes for the bossy tank). Otherwise, a hello, how are you, grats for won rolls, some idle banter, a joke or two, is all that needs to be said.
Also, whispers are helpful. And make sure the person *wants* your help. Watch your tone.
humperdinck Aug 27th 2010 2:51PM
I agree. Robin's advice on the surface is reasonable, but may come off as dickish in a real situation. I would be put off by any tank that spent all that time laying down ground rules for a 20-30 min PUG.
When I tank, I only try to correct issues as they come up. If someone continues not to listen or becomes jerky, I initiate a vote kick. Chances are, if you think someone in your party is being a jerk, everyone else in the party is thinking the same thing.
Bouille Aug 27th 2010 1:30PM
I hate slow runs. Especially when most of the group is 5k GS+. If you have to take your time with the run F*** Off please? When you're doing random Heroics and everyone is geared enough to rape the place in half a second, it sucks to have downtime between pulls.
snarkygoldfish Aug 27th 2010 1:38PM
My guild often uses heroics as a way for us to test / practice offspecs we've gotten gear for through running ICC / other raids.
1) You are more than welcome to drop group if you don't like the pace we are going.
2) You are quite welcome to drop group if you don't like the DPS we are putting out.
3) You will probably find yourself vote-kicked if you start whining about GS or spamming Recount.
wycowboy76 Aug 27th 2010 1:41PM
The only issue I have with that is that there are time that we are killing things fast enough that I will have a needed aggro spell on cool down. In my opinion the 10 sec wait is worth it to keep your toon alive and us not having to wait for an impatient dps to be rezzed.
thegatherer Aug 27th 2010 2:43PM
hmmm....there should never be downtime? how about when a new 80 tank gets steamrolled by pull initiated by an impatient DPS? or when a healer is OOM? or what about when all the DPS are dead because the healer was too busy trying to keep the tank alive because of all the pats/adds the DPS pulled? Maybe someone is starting a healing/tanking offspec and they are still figuring out their abilities....
I think during these times, downtime is alright.
Grovinofdarkhour Aug 27th 2010 4:20PM
Bouille -
Even if I shared your perspective, I would still downvote you for casual use of the word "rape." It's not funny and it's not cool.
Alchemistmerlin Aug 27th 2010 1:37PM
That loot policy is awful, and just leads to people needing everything and hording.
freyal Aug 27th 2010 1:38PM
Tank frustration // tank entitlement... thin line between the two in my opinion. While I agree that groups as a general rule, need a general rule -- I don't believe it has to be the tank strong arming the instance into obeying his rule. No one wants to be that dps who ports into a dungeon with a tank and healer tag team saying "do it my way or we will kick you.." It starts the whole dungeon off on a sour note. Especially because it seems to convey the idea that the tank is more important than the dps who just spent 40 minutes waiting to get into a dungeon it took the tank 30 secs to arrive in. All members of the party are equal. And it's unfair for tanks to assume they're more important.
I use to have a macro before I pulled on my druid tank while leveling that said:
Here at Air Bear, we aim to deliver you, your badges in 30 minutes or less, please be seated, buff up and keep your dps behind your tank at all times. If you're experiencing any aggro or turbulence run towards me, not away. If the run is going too fast or too slow, please alert the captain. Mana is always available on the house upon request. Please let your captain know when you're ready to begin.
(I usually got a few laughs, and a few comments along the lines of "I like this tank already").
While I was pulling I'd usually ask if anyone needed and specific off armor type gear off a particular boss (so the group would know to pass rather than greed/de roll for it).
-----------
Sometimes as a tank you're going to have a bunch of groups where you and the group just don't seem to jive. And other days every group you get is going to be great. Consider it like a blind date, if things go badly you don't need to see them again. But handle yourself with class and respect, and you'll get the same returned in kind.
Most of all if you're not having fun, stop running dungeons for that day. Go do dailies or something else that's fun for you -- or just log off -- no sense in making yourself grit your teeth.
ambermist Aug 27th 2010 1:55PM
I love that macro with all my boomkin heart.
Sinnh Aug 27th 2010 2:06PM
Oh man I might steal that macro from you or try my darndest to come up with my own, even if only half as witty
winterhawk Aug 27th 2010 2:37PM
Okay, that macro is the coolest thing I've seen so far today. I am *so* coming up with my own version of it for my DK tank. :)
Mellorn Aug 27th 2010 3:20PM
That macro is awesome!
thegatherer Aug 27th 2010 3:42PM
I must admit, that macro is awesome, and if I ever come across you I will kneel before you.
Macros make everything fun, from FD, to tanking, to MD....mostly when you try to throw a little roleplay into the mix....."those arrows are actually coming from that guy right in front of you...yep, nothing suspicious about that....*whistle*"
Valtor Aug 27th 2010 1:43PM
I'm sorry but the blatant disrespect to the "Go Shaman" is not appreciated
Grovinofdarkhour Aug 27th 2010 1:43PM
Well, I mentioned before how the wife and I 'had' a couple of real nice tank & healer pairs ( http://www.wow.com/2010/08/06/drama-mamas-tank-entitlement-fri/comments/29737197/ ). A few randoms on each side later, and I was told "we really should only run with guildies if you're gonna tank. You get a little crazy." (To which I replied, "OK then, you level a tank instead, and I'll heal." Apparently, I do a decent impression of Dubya ducking the shoe.)
As nice and patient and team-player-y as I try to be, always starting with something like "Hi guys, learning to tank here, please let me do the pulling and get aggro on the whole group before opening up, tx" - I have realized this one simple fact. OK, two simple facts.
1.
The lower-level random with at least one DPSer who pulls at will, someone who either insults you or drops group when you suggest not everything must be done at lightspeed, or a melee'er who intentionally wants to "prove" they can pull aggro off you by using tanking abilities even though they queued up as a DPS so they can utter their wittiest line ever (which would be "lol fail tank"... apparently he missed where I actually SAID "learning to tank") - this is the RULE, not the exception.
2.
The lower-level random where everyone does their part and ONLY their part, in no way inhibits anyone else's ability to perform their roles, and behaves like they probably walk upright and may actually be worthy of membership in some sort of a society - this is the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
Long and the short of it, the experiment is over... for now.
DavidC Aug 27th 2010 2:21PM
@Grovinofdarkhour: "who intentionally wants to "prove" they can pull aggro"
Don't worry about those people ... simply don't taunt off them. When they die or say: "Fail Tank" you simply respond with: "You get what you earned, and you earned aggro, who am I to mess with Fate?".
Shuts them up pretty darned quick.
Colin Aug 27th 2010 1:44PM
Wow, if a tank started barking orders like that at me I would just quit the group. You say don't be a funsucker, but nothing sucks the fun out of the room like attending boot camp with Major Payne tanking for you.
I just give players a warning if they're actively ruining the dungeon run and then kick the next time it happens.
As to the player, I found that groups got a lot better in Northrend and at cap. Outlands dungeon runs are notoriously awful. I just quest through it.
Drez Aug 27th 2010 1:57PM
I have to agree here. I usually agree with Drama Mamas, but if a tank started a random heroic with Robin's list I'll probably assume that they are one of the "entitled tanks" that they were disapproving of not so long ago and re-queue, even if it takes another 30 minutes of waiting. I play the game to have fun. That list might be helpful for completely clueless new players, but it will seriously turn off more experienced laid back players (who could be extremely well geared and experienced).
That list makes YOU sound like the funsucker, Robin.
Just softening the language, even if the message is the same, as Lisa does makes it a much more relaxed and comfortable atmosphere. If this were a duel, I think Lisa wins by a very large margin.