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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: Are there atheists in Azeroth?
by Chad Abshire 
Aug 30th 2010 at 8:00AM
Atheism is a rejection in the belief of deities. In the real world, that is easy enough to understand. There are many religions practiced on Earth, and most of them (if not all) worship at least one deity. This could be a god or goddess that is associated with a certain characteristic or trait, or it could be a creator, one divine being that shaped everything that is everything from nothing. Whatever your beliefs are, atheism is simply a rejection that any of that happened or exists.
But what happens when we push reality into fiction and bring this thought into the game world that we all log in to? Can atheism really exist in Azeroth? We know that there are gods and goddesses that have roles in WoW. A few of them have even been seen in game, like Hakkar or Yogg-Saron. But there are many that have yet to make an appearance, like Elune or the other Old Gods that we've yet to uncover.
But are they really gods? They might simply be incredibly powerful beings that the mortals of Azeroth have dubbed to be gods and worship as such. It's hard to relate this thought to our reality, because we don't live in a magical world where people can conjure food from thin air or call down a thunderstorm on command every 45 seconds. That's where the suspension of disbelief comes into play.
We might not have visible gods that can be proven in our world, but in Azeroth, there are quite clearly powerful beings that are divine or unholy or whatever. From a roleplaying standpoint, it seems nearly impossible to play a character that doesn't believe in a god. That character doesn't have to worship a god, but to deny that any one exists is ignorance.
There were Titans in Azeroth. They created many things. There is evidence of them. Likewise, there are Old Gods as well. They delight in chaos. We've killed two of them. There are demons, there are angels, and there are many things that you cannot deny exist in Azeroth.
What do you think? Can there be a legitimate form of atheism in WoW?
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 12)
Nauscicaa Aug 30th 2010 8:37AM
In RL there is no proof that gods do exist, therefore there are people that do not believe in the existence of them (atheists) or people who do not consider them a factor as neither their existence or non-existence can be proven (agnostics).
In WoW there is proof that gods exist, you can even go to their layers and slay them. It is impossible to ignore the existance of C'thun or Yogg-Saron therefore being an atheist (or agnostic) is pointless.
Even the non-believing farmer in Durotar can be taken to the dwellings of the gods, be it AQ40 or Ulduar, whether they survive or not is another story.
In real life I still have not seen anyone calling LFM Hell(or Heaven) need 1 tank, 2 healers and 4 dps and actually making that raid happen ;)
Neyssa Aug 30th 2010 9:39AM
In WoW there is proof that gods exist, you can even go to their layers and slay them. It is impossible to ignore the existance of C'thun or Yogg-Saron therefore being an atheist (or agnostic) is pointless.
I think this makes WoW the perfect place not to believe in God. God should not be someone you can just go and kill. They are called Gods, they are very very powerful, they create worlds, but why would anyone believe in them? Just like a previous commenter, who quoted Terry Pratchett.
anne Aug 30th 2010 8:38AM
Since the existence of a RL God cannot be proven or disproven, atheism, like theism, represents only a belief in what is...or isn't. The reality can't be determined and therefore faith, or its absence, has to come from elsewhere.
Despite bumping into gods and goddesses of all types in Azeroth, it is still possible to have those who believe them not divine, but simply superior, mortal versions of the mages, warlocks, paladins, etc. that fight for control every day. Just as real life still has a Flat Earth Society and those who choose not to believe the established view of what confronts them, so it can be in Azeroth.
In other words, just because the lore describes gods and just because you run into super powerful beings, doesn't mean that you must adopt the belief that they imply. Theism and atheism are both beliefs, not knowledge sets, and are subject to the thoughts, experiences, and influences around each individual.
And I think I agree that the closest we get to a race of atheists are the goblins...those who worship Mammon.
arawn.chernobog Aug 30th 2010 8:56AM
Atheist here, and in a universe like Warcraft's where it's logical basis is inconsistent with our own world... You can't really have an atheist in such a universe where there's an entire race of beings wandering around "pooping out" planets and then two other organizations going around Destroying them... and their referred to as "Gods".
But in the traditional "God" sense, an Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Immortal being, there is no such thing in Warcraft's universe; God's have a limited presence, their powers are somewhat limited to their theme, etc.
The one possible except to this is the "holy light" but since it isn't an entity and more of a flowing source of power that ANYONE can tap into should they "want it badly enough", it's not a "God" in the traditional sense of the word.
Again, this is all technicalities, to some extent the Church of the Holy Light could be considered Atheist due to having no true belief in ONE (or several) Divine Entities and more of a belief in a flowing divine energy who's users are "benevolent" yet "vengeful" by default (This only applies to Human and Dwarven Paladins and Priests... and to a lesser extent Forsaken)
shadowhowl1900 Aug 30th 2010 8:41AM
All the gods you mentioned are fake since we killed them, only god that really exists in WoW is the spirit healer.
kierk Aug 30th 2010 8:42AM
atheism is the disbelief of deistic belief systems due to the inability to confirm or deny their existence.
In azeroth, power beings that may constitute that of a god exist; old-gods, titans, sargeras. These are active entities that exist within 'reality' in some way; titans created the elemental plane/ordered azeroth; old-gods manifest themselves within the titans creation to absorb and manipulate life; sargeras exists to counterpart the agenda of the titans, to create chaos instead of order. Sargeras and the titans have political agendas whilst the old gods do not.
Now, elune is quite passive but has made her existence somehow known to the night-elves. Through visions, magic and tradition she exists but takes a distanced approach from society, unlike the aforementioned entities. The naaru are also manifestations of the light who take an active but restrained role in society. In-game there's little made known about the Naaru, except that they are servitors of the light. The light is quite interesting as it preaches the fundamentals of christianity which are so hilariously forgotten by christians themselves: faith, fidelity and compassion/love. If a paladin betrays these virtues, the light shuns him/her. That's an active role in maintaining social order.
Atheism, as a denial of metaphysical entities cannot exist in Azeroth. however, spiritual neutrality is always a path open. With the hodgepodge of cultures in azeroth it's near impossible to make generalisations. Stormwind is a class based social structure where the uneducated peasants probably pay homage to the light for a good harvest/no angry dragons burninating their shit. Orcs, a warrior/shamanistic culture may not pay homage directly to any entity, but respect the flows of nature and take only what's needed. Orc culture is difficult to analyse since the schism between shamanism and barbarism segregates their culture. Trolls...again are massively fracture, so let's just focus on the Darkspear. They believe in the Loa (almost typed Lua lawl. Programmer trolls?) and, judging by their architecture, permeates deeply within most aspects of their culture (voodoo bric-a-brac decorates almost all their structures).
I should probably stop and get back to the main point.
Atheism could exist, moreso like agnosticism, but as a pragmatic decision; does the following of any entity or spiritual force better my existence? It's honestly impossible to say without knowledge about all the cultures social structures of belief.
Some forsaken are probably 'athiests'. Those who do not follow the forgotten shadow or the twilight cult may chose to focus their energy and direct their belief into matters of science or magic or stealth or fighting prowess or devotion to the crown. Just like our reality.
inb4 wall of text crits for over9000
sannhollis Aug 30th 2010 11:17AM
It's a minor quibble, but "deism" isn't the same thing as "theism". Theology in today's world is full of nebulous terms that get thrown around as though they're catch-alls when that really isn't the case.
I agree with your overall thoughts on Azerothian atheism vs. agnosticism, though. I really enjoyed your post, especially in pointing out the difference in an active/inactive supernatural element.
ceristapwns Aug 30th 2010 8:45AM
Well... technically the Light may be the closest thing Azeroth has to atheism. The ability to use the light doesn't necessarily come from any specific god(s), but rather from a philosophical belief.
Though, on the other hand, most people believe that the Light itself comes from a specific godly being. You just aren't required to believe in or worship one in order to use it, I think. And just because users of the Light don't officially worship a god doesn't mean they don't believe in one.
Personally, I think that Azeroth does leave room for atheism, just like in the real world. But with the amount of death and destruction that goes on so often in Azeroth, they might be a bit hard to find.
BlindWorg Aug 30th 2010 8:45AM
Most of the time when we uncover the truth and knowledge about the extremely powerful beings described as Gods they are reduced from their ''god'' status to the just that, extremely powerful beings. God's are usually thought to be omnipotent but when we actually break that myth, like for the 2 Old Gods we have ''killed'', we find out that ''Hey doods, we cn totalli 0wn these noobs!''. Orcs at some point worshipped Kil'Jaeden when he recruited them at some point but we defeated him at the Sunwell. Lich King was worshipped as a God amongst the Cult of the Damned but we beat his ass too.
This (in my opinion) reflects the real world somewhat, purposefully or not, of when we can observe and understand the previously unobservable its no longer so mystical like lightning storms, rainbows and starfalls but that doesnt make them less amazing (or in case of WoW, less dangerous).
pancakes Aug 30th 2010 8:48AM
I don't know if there would be many who would outright deny the existence of Azerothian gods, but it's much more likely that there are a few weak agnostics who don't really care whether gods exist, as it doesn't really matter to them.
Also, as mentioned, the matter is a difficult one to discuss without defining what a god is in a world where there are very blatant supernatural powers and happenings that control and shape the world. My dictionary defines it as being a) the creator of the universe/world (In Azeroth's case, the titans, who seem to be beyond comprehension in game, and thus, no one really "worships" them (correct me if I'm wrong =P)) or b) a superhuman being worshipped as having sway over nature or other forces. Under this second definition, the spirits Shamans worship are gods; hell, most playable classes fall under this definition.
followthategg Aug 30th 2010 8:49AM
I feel it is my duty to post this link to Oxhorn's Invisible pink unicorn video to explain this fully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isV0qR-CKeQ
Hoofio Aug 30th 2010 8:50AM
Interesting conjecture but ultimately moot. Since Wow is a fictional narrative of course gods can be 'real' as much as goblins and werewolves. The question of how supernatural creatures can be said to exist in the real world is not really a parallel imho.
What would be commensurate, I think, is a political comparison. The argument between democratic socialism and unfettered capitalism is as hot a topic as atheism vs theism on the internet.
I'm often struck by what I see as something of a socialist utopia on Azeroth. For example: We pay our taxes ($15) and for that receive a minimum "standard of living" (welfare badge epics) regardless of our ability (time to play) or social standing (what guild we're in). There's still plenty of scope for success (rare mounts, heroic kills, the AH) but no one's left cold and destitute as long as they make some effort (not gold beggars).
Also, there's a bi-polar nature to politics (Alliance are clearly Republicans! :P)
It's a shame that the Seed program is only open to US players as I have a number of other examples of this allegory. Also, as a half hearted attempt to avoid being flamed, I'll point out that this is tongue-in-cheek as, of course, Azeroth is not a democracy.. At least I don't remember being able to vote for my local GM or kick Chris Metzen out for what he's planning to do to Thrall!
bynde Aug 30th 2010 9:35AM
"Also, there's a bi-polar nature to politics (Alliance are clearly Republicans! :P)"
Now, THAT, Sir, is the biggest insult to the Alliance I have ever read.
RetadinMan Aug 30th 2010 10:05AM
Hey! I am a member of the Socialist Party in the US and I play Alliance!
Hoofio Aug 30th 2010 10:10AM
Just saying I've seen a lot of gnomes that look like John McCain...
Coincidence? I think not! ;)
osteenq Aug 30th 2010 10:47AM
@Hoofio
Even directed at a race as universally despised as the gnomes, any comparison to that (expletive deleted) John McCain is REALLY uncalled for.
And might I add that while their engineering might not be the best, none of them have ever caused a catastrophe so horrendous as what was wrought upon the Earth when McCain flipped over Sarah Palin's rock and encouraged her to crawl out into the light of day.
We should be making jokes about punting HIM.
Jack Miles Aug 30th 2010 8:52AM
You could take the Granny Weatherwax route and choose to not believe in Azeroths gods and be content to simply know they exist.
Afterall, you dont "Believe" in the mailman.
SamLowry Aug 30th 2010 1:17PM
But without the Mailman, how do you explain the Victoria's Secret catalog that keeps appearing on my doorstep?
If that ain't a wish come true, I don't know what is.
owenbuch Aug 30th 2010 8:55AM
I know my own character in the World of Warcraft is an Athiest. She believes that the Light is just like the Arcane or Natural magic in principal. Those with a will and a want strong enough to want to learn it can. It doesn't require any faith. She's a Blood Knight. :P
TwinCitiesKnick Aug 30th 2010 8:56AM
You know what? You're right. He was agnostic in that way, not atheist. He admitted the possibility that God exists and he took orders from Him, that he might be insane, that angels might be aliens... he was an agnostic, a skeptic with a very high standard for certainty.