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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Are there atheists in Azeroth?
by Chad Abshire 
Aug 30th 2010 at 8:00AM
Atheism is a rejection in the belief of deities. In the real world, that is easy enough to understand. There are many religions practiced on Earth, and most of them (if not all) worship at least one deity. This could be a god or goddess that is associated with a certain characteristic or trait, or it could be a creator, one divine being that shaped everything that is everything from nothing. Whatever your beliefs are, atheism is simply a rejection that any of that happened or exists.
But what happens when we push reality into fiction and bring this thought into the game world that we all log in to? Can atheism really exist in Azeroth? We know that there are gods and goddesses that have roles in WoW. A few of them have even been seen in game, like Hakkar or Yogg-Saron. But there are many that have yet to make an appearance, like Elune or the other Old Gods that we've yet to uncover.
But are they really gods? They might simply be incredibly powerful beings that the mortals of Azeroth have dubbed to be gods and worship as such. It's hard to relate this thought to our reality, because we don't live in a magical world where people can conjure food from thin air or call down a thunderstorm on command every 45 seconds. That's where the suspension of disbelief comes into play.
We might not have visible gods that can be proven in our world, but in Azeroth, there are quite clearly powerful beings that are divine or unholy or whatever. From a roleplaying standpoint, it seems nearly impossible to play a character that doesn't believe in a god. That character doesn't have to worship a god, but to deny that any one exists is ignorance.
There were Titans in Azeroth. They created many things. There is evidence of them. Likewise, there are Old Gods as well. They delight in chaos. We've killed two of them. There are demons, there are angels, and there are many things that you cannot deny exist in Azeroth.
What do you think? Can there be a legitimate form of atheism in WoW?
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 12)
TwinCitiesKnick Aug 30th 2010 8:58AM
Meant for this to be in an earlier comment, ignore this.
Cyrus Aug 30th 2010 8:59AM
Many gnomes and dwarves are probably atheist. We know some dwarves worship the Light, but many are more concerned with and interested in the legacy of the Titans. The Titans are basically gods (but then again, arguably sufficiently advanced aliens) but gods or not, there's no actual "worship" involved in digging up their old relics and stuff, just research.
There's also henotheism - belief that many gods exist, but only one is worth worshipping. (Whether that means only one is worth worshipping at all, or one is OK for my tribe and another for yours and so on, or both, is beyond me; I'm not a theologian.) The Old Testament goes back and forth but overall leans toward henotheism, I think. In Azeroth, it seems like the majority of the population would be henotheistic. It seems that most Azerothians already acknowledge the existence of the Light and Elune and troll loa and so on, and choose to worship one and ignore (or kill!) the rest.
And then there's misotheism - god is real (or gods are), but he's a bastard and not worthy of worship. After the mess the Titans left behind for us poor people caught between Old Gods and elementals, no doubt a lot of Azerothians feel like that. And what's the name of the Forsaken state religion, the Church of the Fallen Shadow or something? It's arguably just a misotheistic twist on the church of the Light.
The Dresdenverse version of atheism or agnosticism seems as possible on Azeroth as in Chicago. Some dragons are incredibly powerful and immortal and no one calls them gods and most of them don't even ask to be worshipped, so why assume that you should fall on your knees literally and figuratively before some other powerful thing?
Gameon Aug 30th 2010 9:02AM
As an atheist I'm really of the opinion that it is not logical to be an atheist in Azeroth. There is way too much repeatable evidence to prove the existence of many gods. It really should be a non-issue.
Krz Aug 30th 2010 9:03AM
This article is basically trolling us.
And the comments section is full of barely concealed flame posts.
I'm an atheist, but if I was in Azeroth for real, I wouldn't be. Because the gods there clearly exist.
drthweatt Aug 30th 2010 9:33AM
How can you say there is no proof of God irl? Have you not been to church? Trivial miracles? I've seen the sick healed, the addicted set free and the lost found.
And if there is a devil in wow then surely there can be athiesm because that's the only reason it exist irl.
Moeru Aug 30th 2010 10:16AM
lolReligiousPropaganda
drthweatt Aug 30th 2010 10:33AM
not propaganda. Go to church and see for yourself.
Arizor Aug 30th 2010 10:41AM
"How can you say there is no proof of God irl? Have you not been to church? Trivial miracles? I've seen the sick healed, the addicted set free and the lost found.
And if there is a devil in wow then surely there can be athiesm because that's the only reason it exist irl."
The greyness of your post seems to say that people disagree or don't come to the same conclusion based on that information.
I have been inside a cathedral, it was a magnificant atmosphere but in my mind just an old building built by several generarions of hard working carpenters.
Trivial mircales are just that - trivial. And in many cases can be explained in a different way.
Ive seen doctors and medicine heal.
Therapists and groups like AA and others set people free of adiction.
Not sure what you mean with "the lost found" but maybe they were physically lost in which the police could find them, or if they have no faith and then found faith then I guess I thats a bit too complicated to get into.
All these things can be done by religious groups but I dont see how God has to exist for them to happen. It can just be humans doing it or mathematical probability.
I have gone off on a slight tangent as I often do :x, seeing as this was about atheism IN WOW but felt I needed to reply as it was quite a stiking comment that rather labels anyone not believing the same way you do, as consumed by an embodiment of hate and death.
snarkygoldfish Aug 30th 2010 11:12AM
And this is what makes me upset about many of those that call themselves Christians.
Vilifying those that choose not to believe what you do is a horrible thing. How does this make you any worse than any other religious extremist in this world? Someone is "the devil" because they don't think the way you do? Ouch.
Love thy neighbor.
It's amazing how many people forget this
drthweatt Aug 30th 2010 11:31AM
I don't understand how I was calling anyone evil or forcing religion on anyone. Someone said there is no proof, I said there is proof I've seen it.
I didn't call anyone the devil...
Arizor Aug 30th 2010 12:12PM
You said that atheists are under the sway of the personification of all negative things.
Also, aside from the fact I dont even know what you're saying you've seen, you say that the fact you've seen 'it' is proof of God.
That's like a child being enthralled by a magic trick, and thinking it's real because the child has seen it. For one thing, you cant always trust your senses.
There are so many people that are inspired to do compassionate and great things because their faith but chastising people who do not have faith is not one of them, sir/madam.
I respect people's beliefs as long as they dont actively encroach upon and insult mine.
drthweatt Aug 30th 2010 12:39PM
I can have my opinion and say it too, like you. I believe athiest are swayed by the devil. As for seeing miracles Ive seen things done in my life and the people around me that could only have happened by Jesus. At least, hopefully, you dont believe we come from monkeys, why are there still monkies then?
Jamesisgreat Aug 30th 2010 12:52PM
Sometimes I try to hope that batcrap crazy comments like the one above from my learned friend on why are there still 'monkies', atheists being 'swayed by the devil' ( but then he does have all the best musicians, doesn't he?), and Jesus miracles are simply just kids trolling. But in this case unfortunately, I think not....
SamLowry Aug 30th 2010 1:35PM
It's just like the comments under every single Yahoo News article--batshit crazy. Wildfires outside Moscow? Obama's fault. Chilean miners trapped underground? Obama's fault. Ambassador's drunken daughter falls off balcony? Let your mind run wild.
Not surprising at all that 18% of Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth. Even worse is that so many more believe "Alley Oop" and "The Flintstones" are historical documents.
Arizor Aug 30th 2010 1:52PM
There are still chimpanzees (not monkies) because humans and chimps evovolved from a common ancestor millions of years ago.
The ancestor preceding chimps and humans took two paths of mutation, one resulted in chimps and another in what would become humans.
Everyone can have an opinion but when it insults people, it wont be met with smiling faces.
The fact you dont even understand what you so feverantly believe to be evil is the reason I dont have faith.
I feel it stymies progress.
Who knows if some of those suicide bombers might've grown up to be great scientists or doctors despite incredibly tough circumstance.
I doubt you are considering bombing anywhere but when you believe other people are evil because they believe something different that yourself, it becomes a terrible path to walk.
Or if anyone that devoted their life to any form of closed-minded belief system might have helped the world in some tangible way instead of preaching.
Many of the lessons religion teaches will always hold true but too often they are taught at the expense of everything else.
I really enjoy debate, even though this is one of a more heated one.
What sort of things have you witnessed that could have only been done by Jesus?
SamLowry Aug 30th 2010 2:52PM
Arizor, so many members of the 9/11 suicide squad were from upper class families and had been training for the upper-level professions you mention--in other words, they were people who should've known better--yet a cancerous religious dogma pushed all that learned rationalism aside and convinced them that murder/suicide was a good idea.
It's only the more recent wave of suicide bombers who are so hopeless and cash-strapped that they think throwing their lives away for some dough is a similarly good idea.
Ut-oh, I think we're playing into the "All religion is destructive" vs "No, religion is the opiate of the masses" argument.
Arizor Aug 30th 2010 3:56PM
@above
Hmm didnt know that.
I suspect our views are similar but because this is a WoW blog, I decided to tone down what I personally feel and just adress a specific issue the OP brought up.
Felix_NZ Aug 30th 2010 4:52PM
@SamLowry.
You can't give all the credit to Islam, as with any other vehicle for manipulating people, be it religion, politics or social circles, People gravitate to what gives them purpose and identity.
Now if the roles were reversed, and the US had been repeatedly ravaged by outside interests who meddled in your governance, set up ways of taking your lands resources without compensation, and then some chap comes up to you saying that the reason for your suffering is all the rich Atlantians, reaping the rewards of your home, and then saying that you can become a hero, and be eternally rewarded by Elune for taking righteous action against them. What would you say?
Note I am not saying 9/11 was ok, it was a terrible, terrible tragedy. What I am saying, is that if you understand what has happened to Afghanistan and the surrounding aread from direct US involvement, and if you understand social conditional, it is very understandable. Hitler did the same thing against the Jews, Stalin did the same thing against the Tsars, as soon as X is good and Y is evil and the cause of all our pain, and people are easily swayed by charismatic leaders and black & white simplicity, shits gonna keep happening.
Perc Aug 30th 2010 6:49PM
I'm not going to give my own opinion on the subject because I honestly believe that no good can come of this. This is not about having a discussion but more about "proving" how wrong the other side is. I will say this though:
Drthweatt you have every right to say what you believe. No one here is telling you you *can't* say it. But then everyone else has the right to disagree with you and express that disagreement (by down voting). You are not being persecuted drthweatt: people tend to believe that the first amendment guarantees you the right to not only say what you want but then shield you from criticism. But just as you can say what you want so can everyone else. The other posters do not agree with you and are stating THEIR opinion.
But at the end of the day this has just become a shouting match.
SamLowry Aug 30th 2010 11:02PM
What I don't understand is why we never saw any reprisals from Latin Americans after all the crap the U.S. pulled in Central and South America. Really, the U.S. gov't and related corporate interests completely screwed them over in so many different ways and yet there was no blowback. It all turned into self-contained civil wars that kept the hostility local and eventually gave us guys like Castro and Hugo Chavez who continue to be treated like clowns for daring to complain about the raping and pillaging their nations.