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8-30-2010 @ 1:28PM
Hmm.... YOu know, this article doesn't differentiate at all between people who like being in a guild for the company but who mostly want to quest and explore, and freeloaders. Sorry, but I think the new elitist garbage is going to be people who complain about 'freeloaders' as if having everyone not contribute materially to guild perks is an offense vs simply being a difference in how people play. At the end of the day, what does it matter if someone who's not contributed a lot to the guild rep gets access to rep specific rewards? Does it hurt those who did contribute? No. Does it setup an us vs them mentality? Yes. "I contributed a lot and you just leveled alts..." So? If both players did what they wanted, neither has justification for looking down their noses at the other. The article also mixes general advice with the freeloader issue - people who ninja IDs, steal loot and poison your guild's actual reputation are an issue regardless of the existence of perks - you want to filter those people out anyway. Sorry, but I think you're creating the basis for a lot of drama by championing the idea of freeloaders and I don't see a lot of benefit to guild to worrying about it. People should be filtered anyway, some will legitimately move on, others will be very involved and loyal, some will be minimally involved. That's life and the game. There's no need to create elitist tropes around it.
8-30-2010 @ 1:53PM
I think that you're ignoring the idea that there may be a lot of guilds with different styles. Some guilds are fine with people who just want to explore and be social, some are not. I know I have been in guilds and been frustrated when too many people were in 'explore' mode to actually contribute to, say, raiding, even when it was just casual raiding like a quick Kara run (I haven't really been in a guild for a while.) I think a guild that's focused on progression would see a nice, friendly person who had no intention of raiding with them but wanted to chat as a freeloader- because their standards for membership include participation. Likewise, a friendly guild would see someone who just wanted to be in the guild for perks but had no intention of socializing as a freeloader. That person would be taking up guild space, but not being friendly or anything. If the guild expectations were for friendship, and someone isn't providing that, they're freeloading.A guild set up just for guild perks might see someone who is too chatty and too interested in trying to organize events that no one else wants to do is a burden. Probably not a "freeloader", but equally problematic. It basically comes down to defining your guild's general attitude and interests, letting people know this information and screening accordingly. A freeloader is someone who joins knowing this information and has no intentions of fulfilling their obligations to the guild.
Your response seems a little harsh. Seems to me the point to the article is that the idea of guild perks is extremely likely to create a new category of guild applicants: "People who want to join a guild to get stuff only the new guild leveling system can provide."Casual, social guilds - what I assume are the destination of choice for people who want company while questing and nothing more - are probably among the least likely to attract freeloaders because they won't be aggressive enough about guild leveling to make it worth their while.And Scott did say "It's depressing when you've got 15 people online and no one responds to guild chat" - which would seem to suggest that entertaining fellow guildies with your amusing conversation is making a contribution of sorts to a guild - and those aren't the kinds of people he's talking about.
8-30-2010 @ 1:54PM
You seem to be forgetting that once perks are active, freeloaders will be the same as any other bad guild member slang. All it comes down to is keeping people out of your guild that are going to be detrimental to your playtime. If you're so afraid that you'll be mistaken for a freeloader, ask yourself why you're not already being kicked from guilds. Answer? Because you contribute in some way to the fun of other guild members. Perks will be the same as anything else a guild offers that some people abuse and others earn through their time. Just like we have to be on the lookout to kick people from raids for being freeloaders, the terminology may imply this is some new drama, but it's not. Filter out people who make the game unfun for you, hang on to the people who keep it fun. Freeloader, baddie, whatever you want to call it, it's the same thing.
8-30-2010 @ 2:38PM
"Likewise, a friendly guild would see someone who just wanted to be in the guild for perks but had no intention of socializing as a freeloader. That person would be taking up guild space, but not being friendly or anything. If the guild expectations were for friendship, and someone isn't providing that, they're freeloading."What space? Sure there's a 500 slot limit, but really... how does it hurt a guild to have someone join, be realtively shy, not run 5 mans etc and just quest? Maybe they like having gchat in the background. Maybe they can't or don't play a lot. Again, the entire freeloading concept is only valid if 1) having non-contributing members actively hurts a guild's progress to a perk level or 2) having someone who didn't contribute to perks use them when those perks are limited in some way (only N people in a guild can buy Important Pattern from the Guild vendor, etc). I'm relatively active in the guild I belong to and have been there for a couple of years, so this isn't actually a concern for me, but it seems we have the Officer's Quarters columnist actively creating a source of drama here and I just don't see the need. Freeloaders who are bad guildies in the manner described in the article are bad guildies period, regardless of perks. People who don't contribute as much to getting perks aren't bad or evil... and they don't actually hurt the guild. This is just stirring up drama for no reason.
8-30-2010 @ 2:37PM
I don't let people in my guild that just want free bank repairs.If you're in a guild and you don't do anything with them you might as well be guildless. You're trying to justify the actions of these people, but what reason are they in the guild? Rarely do I see the message/focus of a guild being 'We just want you in the guild because we have stuff you can use without contributing back." It doesn't make sense from a Guild Leaders standpoint to have people in guild who do nothing with other people and just use free bank repairs/perks.
8-30-2010 @ 2:44PM
@Moeru - Define 'doing'. Define 'contributing'. For a raid guild, that's easy, but I've belonged to 2 large social guilds and theres a wide variety of people from those who level a lot of alts to raiders, to people who quest and do dailies for rep or gold. You're worried about gold? But a person who solo quests will, if your guild has the Cash Flow (name?) perk, contribute gold back when they loot. Why shouldn't they get repairs then? Your reaction is EXACTLY the problem with this post. You want 'contribute' to mean 'play in a way I approve of and feel contributes' - that's pure drama. YOU might want to run heroics for badges to the limit and raid... but someone else might want to login, level and alt a bit, do some dailies and log off. If you want just active raiders and people who run heroics, that's fine, but you want to screen those people out NOW, not just in Cata.
8-30-2010 @ 4:01PM
You want 'contribute' to mean 'play in a way I approve of and feel contributes.'Um, duh?Isn't that one of the primary reasons guilds EXIST? --"Hey, I want to run heroics, I'm going to find a guild that has a lot of active members who like to do instances. If I join this guild and they don't do that, I will find another guild that does."--"Hey, I want to raid top tier content. I'm going to find a guild that is progressing at a level I like. If I join this guild and they don't cut it, I will find another guild that does."--"Hey, I want to be in a guild with people I can talk to. If I'm not comfortable with those people, I will find another guild with whom I can be comfortable."Maybe you're too busy uprating your own comments to read the ones that follow: "It basically comes down to defining your guild's general attitude and interests, letting people know this information and screening accordingly"If you publicize your guild as a social guild that does lots of guild activities, then you want people to join who are social and will participate in guild activities. If you publicize your guild as a raiding guild, you want people to join who are able to jump into content with both feet and perform well.It is NOT unfair to have expectations of guild members BASED ON the type of guild you run. I am in an adult raiding guild. I do want to have other adult players who raid in our guild. Guess what I don't want? Children or a roster full of people who have never raided with us. Is it unfair? No, because this is my guild. If the guild ever changes, I'll leave and find one that suits me better. There are guilds out there for children and non-raiders. Mine isn't one of them.
8-30-2010 @ 4:03PM
Hmmm...Clevins, you look like you're just looking for a fight and I'm not sure why. We have a small guild with a wide range of players. Some of them talk, some of them don't. Some of them raid, some of them don't even want to run 5-mans. Some PvP, some hate it. Everyone is welcome.What is not welcome are people who repeatedly take valuable items out of the guild bank without ever putting anything back in. People who, the moment they log in, try to demand that any else who's on run them through whatever instances they're working on and never return the favor. People who want to come along on a raid and then spend twenty minutes making bandages saying they'll be there "in a minute."You're right - defining narrow parameters of "doing" and "contributing" isn't necessarily appropriate in a social guild. But I think there are some pretty well-defined parameters of "not doing" and "actively harming." And I can imagine scenarios in which the guild perks system creates new vectors for both of the latter. That's not drama. It's a fact.
8-30-2010 @ 4:12PM
@ambermist - first, I don't uprate my own comments... and you can only uprate once anyway. So, sorry, but it seems people agree with me. More to the point, what you ignore in your flailing attempt at reason is that social/casual guilds usually exist as homes for a wide variety of playstyles from raiding to running 5 mans, to solo questing or leveling a lot of alts. So in that kind of a guild, define 'contribute'. Any of those things or other styles like BGing a lot, are valid in a casual guild. All this asinine concept of 'freeloading' does is to drive wedges between people. Some people might only be able to play an hour a day and not even every day. In a casual guild now, that's accepted. But we're to believe it's freeloading in Cata? Why? How is this NOT causing drama where none needs to exist because PERKS AREN'T A SCARCE RESOURCE. If they were, I'd understand the issue, but perks aren't a limited resource, so who cares if guildie X can buy a rare pattern when they might not have contributed as much as guildie Y? As long as everyone who wants it can buy it, how is anyone hurt by this?
8-30-2010 @ 5:04PM
@Bennet: The issue here is, as Clevins rightfully points out, people actively doing harm to the guild should be counted completely separate from people who are less active, level alts, etc. There is a far cry from the guy who wants to be in a guild and have access to perks, but doesn't meet someone's definition of 'contributing' but does no harm and someone who both doesn't meet the definition and actively leeches from the guild bank.
8-30-2010 @ 7:59PM
@Clevins"In a casual guild now, that's accepted. But we're to believe it's freeloading in Cata? Why?"My casual guild fell apart because of this thinking. Half the guild wasn't friends with the other. No one fought, no one argued, no one took advantage of the guild itself, it was just half the guild didn't interact in any way with the other half. We were a merger of two casual guilds that lost members due to inactivity and others going to high end raiding groups.If anyone is in your guild that is unknown to the rest of the guild, or just generally unliked by the higher ups, why should they be there? Guilds are for friends or coworkers with a common goal. A freeloader, a baddie, whatever you want to call it already exists, they're people who are in the guild for no apparent reason. Maybe they got past the trial phase right after the officer that recruited them had a big shit fit and left (like one of ours was) and now they're in the guild but don't actually interact with anyone. Why should they be there? They aren't taking up space, but why should you be in a guild that you never interact with? Go join another guild, make some friends, it's just awkward for everyone else if you're that guy who's there but never talks to anyone or helps anyone.Maybe making this post all about perks was stirring up drama, but come cata this will just be another facet on the already drama inducing issue of who to keep in your guild. It's not taboo to discuss it because it will be important, just as important as knowing when to call it quits and split a guild apart. I don't friend everyone I ever run a dungeon with, I don't learn how to pronounce random guys in Dalaran's names, and I don't keep random people in my guild if they're not interacting with me or my members.
8-30-2010 @ 8:33PM
@Ymre, "If anyone is in your guild that is unknown to the rest of the guild, or just generally unliked by the higher ups, why should they be there? Guilds are for friends or coworkers with a common goal. "Er. No. First off, you've mixed three very different things. Let's separate them. First, we have 1) People who are not well known. 2) People who aren't liked by 'the higher ups'. Hmm... So if someone's not well known, they don't belong? Why? How are they hurting the guild if they come on for an hour, play a bit, maybe chat occasionally, maybe not? Sure, they're not as valuable a member as someone who's more active, helps more people, etc... but how are they HURTING? Now, #2... people who aren't lked by the officers. Assuming the officers aren't rabid dickwads, I'd assume these people are troublemakers of some kind. So deal with that. However, that has nothing to do with the issue of freeloading. Now we come to your main fallacy... that guilds are for 'friends or co-workers.' I have a feeling you're in this situation and have made the mistake of assuming that because your guild is like that, all of them should be. However, both of the large casual guilds I've been in are mostly people who've never met outside of the game. A lot of guilds are like t his and simply because yours didn't work doesn't mean that it can't -both of the guilds I've been in are launch day guilds on a launch server (meaning they've been around since the game started). You and others are missing a point that I've stated a few times (or you're dodging the question) which is that the concept of a freeloader only makes sense if the freeloader is hurting the guild. Sure, it might be frustrating to see someone get a perk when you did way more work than they... but as long as you're doing the work because you want to, how did they hurt you? What if someone joins your guild after your guild has all of the perks? Are you simply not taking in new people because they didn't contribute to getting the guild perks? Good luck with that...
8-30-2010 @ 8:51PM
@Jason: My point was that the article does differentiate between those. "Any player who demonstrates, either explicitly or through repeated behavior, that his or her reason for membership is solely to take advantage of perk bonuses can be removed from the guild at an officer's discretion."Yes, there are no doubt officers who will abuse a policy like that. But these are probably the same officers who would abuse any guild policy, no matter how reasonable, because they like to abuse their power.
8-30-2010 @ 9:09PM
@bennet - actually the article does a poor job of such differentiation. So did you and, while I'm NOT looking to pick a fight, I am trying to point out that complaining about freeloaders in a column like this highlights an issue that's not actually real. Look at your earlier reply - it was about people who join an immediately want to get things from the bank and want runthroughs. THAT is the lack of differentiation I'm picking on. You're conflating known bad behaviors with this theoretical 'perk freeloader' when there's zero basis for that. And no one is taking on the point that, simply because one plays more casually it doesn't mean one is freeloading. Look, a guild can setup any rules it wants - it can make playtime rules, demand you have to run X heroics per week etc. But in the absence of rules like that a casual guild accommodates a wide variety of styles, from people who like to grind for hours a night to people who play a few hours a week. All this talk of freeloading does is setup an tension between people who play a lot and people who don't - it's a new source of drama and precisely the kind of things Scott should be against, not for.
8-30-2010 @ 11:31PM
I really appreciate Clevins' point. May I make a suggestion?Perhaps we should differentiate between "getting" from a guild and "taking" from a guild. The issues discussed here seem almost exclusively to involve "taking" from a guild. We don't want anyone taking our time, our reputation, our guild atmosphere, our items, our raid IDs, our guildies, etc. But what do we really care if someone is "getting" without taking? If they are there for the perks and earning them with the necessary guild rep, without taking anything from the guild, is that really a problem at all? We seem to have labeled "getting" as bad, when it's the "taking" that we are discussing how to avoid. Perhaps we should be differentiating between the two.
8-31-2010 @ 3:36AM
I definitely see the point you're trying to make, Clevins, and actually Cata could bring a new age of 'freeloader' usefulness. Right now, if a social guild has a so-called freeloader (let's say, someone who uses guild bank repairs but never puts any gold in) then they can be safely termed a 'freeloader', because they are 'hurting' guild funds by taking away and never giving back. In Cata, as you pointed out, gaining gold while out questing also gives gold to the guild bank, effectively making these people no longer 'freeloaders'. Certainly, there are other ways to 'hurt' guilds - especially raiding ones - but sometimes I'm not sure if 'freeloaders' just don't know about things that could potentially 'hurt' their guild. One commenter pointed out that 'freeloaders' could join a raid and then go back with a PUG later. If they've never done much raiding before, they might not realise that their raid is the same as all the other people's raid. I mean, it's easy to understand that raids are 'locked' after you've already done them that week, but if you've only ever done one-day PUGs you might not understand that if you continue a raid lock, anyone who has ever been in that raid lock gets saved to whatever point you get to. A raiding guild, though would be understandably mad about this, and probably kick the person. Which is okay, the 'freeloader' guildy can now join a new guild and know what it was that he did wrong.On another note, in a social guild I feel it is also a responsibility of the other guild members, who may be part of the 'in' group to reach out to new members. If you're one of the people who play a lot, offer to run leveling members through dungeons or assist with quests, or level with them on alts that are around the same level so there's no XP drop but leveling still goes faster. I've never had a guildy - even a new, shy one - ever turn me down for at least one of those options. It's not only up the 'shy guy' who everyone thinks isn't contributing to get involved with the guild, it's up to the guild to not just sit in their clique of old friends and talk about how 'shy guy' never contributes.But, it is a sensitive topic, so I'm not sure anyone can be convinced either way. Some people will absolutely not suffer people they see as using guild resources without tangible return. And that's their right, I suppose, there's plenty of other guilds out there.
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