Officers' Quarters: Mailbox roundup redux
by Scott Andrews 
Sep 13th 2010 at 1:00PM
Here at Officers' Quarters, I receive a number of emails every week that don't get featured in the column for various reasons (which I explained last time I did a roundup). Once again, it's time to examine some of these shorter -- but no less interesting! -- topics. This roundup's theme is Cataclysm concerns and preparation.
Just the two of us
Hello,
I have tried to find this info but I cannot seem to find it anywhere, or I am really terrible at finding things. Is there going to be a minimum guild size to participate in guild leveling? I started a small guild for myself and my son to play in and we are having a great time, but I hoped we could take advantage of these new features without joining a larger guild or recruiting into the existing one. Obviously we would not get any experience for raids or dungeons, but what about questing and professions, or even rated battlegrounds?
Thank you for your time,
Callidor
I have tried to find this info but I cannot seem to find it anywhere, or I am really terrible at finding things. Is there going to be a minimum guild size to participate in guild leveling? I started a small guild for myself and my son to play in and we are having a great time, but I hoped we could take advantage of these new features without joining a larger guild or recruiting into the existing one. Obviously we would not get any experience for raids or dungeons, but what about questing and professions, or even rated battlegrounds?
Thank you for your time,
Callidor
Hi, Callidor. The good news is that there is no minimum guild size. A guild is a guild, even if it only has two people (or one). The bad news is that, since there will be only two of you, leveling will progress extremely slowly. You will get guild experience for questing, but not much else. Dungeons, raids and rated battlegrounds require a certain number of players to count as guild groups (4 of 5, 8 of 10, 12 of 15, and 20 of 25). The only other way you can get guild experience is by earning guild achievements. Some of these achievements, such as Mix Master and the Slayer achievements, won't be impossible for you. However, most of them will take a long time to earn.
For more info, check out the guild advancement Q&A.
I'm on the outside
Scott,
My guild has existed since vanilla, and I've been a member for about a year now. The way our guild raids is that we have a number of 10-man teams who run on Friday or Saturday night, and then a single 25-man raid that runs on Sunday afternoon. The roster for the 10-man teams is strict. You're either on a team or you're not. For the 25-man raid, however, everyone who wants to go shows up, and the raid leaders figure out who gets to go. I'm often not around on the weekends. So, my first issue basically is that I'm irritated by the fact that all of our progression raiding happens on the weekends.
My second issue feeds somewhat into the first issue. You see, I'm not on one of the 10-man teams. As I said before, the rosters are pretty much set in stone, and as much as I would like to be on a 10-man team, first, there are rarely permanent slots open, and second, I wouldn't be comfortable putting myself forward for an opening when I couldn't guarantee my attendance, as the teams only run on the weekends.
I've spoken with one of the officers in our guild about this, and he's pretty much told me that he thinks I'm the only one with a problem.
Finally, I'm concerned about how things are going to be in Cataclysm. I seriously doubt we will continue with the 25-man raids. Most of our core raiders are people who are focused on 10-man teams. However, since we have a strict-roster, strict-weekend approach to 10-mans, I'm worried about getting cut out.
So, are these issues I should bring up with the leadership? Or am I just whining and being unreasonable after a tough weekend and need to gut it out?
Thanks,
My guild has existed since vanilla, and I've been a member for about a year now. The way our guild raids is that we have a number of 10-man teams who run on Friday or Saturday night, and then a single 25-man raid that runs on Sunday afternoon. The roster for the 10-man teams is strict. You're either on a team or you're not. For the 25-man raid, however, everyone who wants to go shows up, and the raid leaders figure out who gets to go. I'm often not around on the weekends. So, my first issue basically is that I'm irritated by the fact that all of our progression raiding happens on the weekends.
My second issue feeds somewhat into the first issue. You see, I'm not on one of the 10-man teams. As I said before, the rosters are pretty much set in stone, and as much as I would like to be on a 10-man team, first, there are rarely permanent slots open, and second, I wouldn't be comfortable putting myself forward for an opening when I couldn't guarantee my attendance, as the teams only run on the weekends.
I've spoken with one of the officers in our guild about this, and he's pretty much told me that he thinks I'm the only one with a problem.
Finally, I'm concerned about how things are going to be in Cataclysm. I seriously doubt we will continue with the 25-man raids. Most of our core raiders are people who are focused on 10-man teams. However, since we have a strict-roster, strict-weekend approach to 10-mans, I'm worried about getting cut out.
So, are these issues I should bring up with the leadership? Or am I just whining and being unreasonable after a tough weekend and need to gut it out?
Thanks,
Andy on the Outside
Hi, AotO. I've had a few players in my own guild who wanted to raid but who couldn't meet our schedule, so I know what you're going through.
Scheduling is always, always a problem with a larger guild. There's simply no way to schedule raids that meet everyone's needs. Someone is going to get left out, and unfortunately, right now that person is you. Complaining about it again won't get you anywhere. However, you've made your officers aware of it, so if anyone else brings up the matter, you won't be a lone voice anymore.
Until more people have an issue with the schedule, the officers have to keep it as is for the good of the guild. Rescheduling raids is not a trivial matter -- there are potentially devastating consequences. If you reschedule to a time that people don't like, your attendance can drop, your progression can grind to a halt, and before you know it, your best raiders are jumping ship.
My advice to you, for now, if you really can't make your guild's schedule as it exists, is either (a.) try to start your own raiding group during the times you can make it (without, of course, "poaching" from the other scheduled raids), (b.) give up on making those raids regularly and be content filling in when you can, or (c.) look for another guild.
If you stick around for Cataclysm, however, you may get lucky. It's a long shot, but it's possible that other people's schedules will change, and the officers will need to move progression raids to weeknights. You may find the schedule altered to your benefit.
Hi, AotO. I've had a few players in my own guild who wanted to raid but who couldn't meet our schedule, so I know what you're going through.
Scheduling is always, always a problem with a larger guild. There's simply no way to schedule raids that meet everyone's needs. Someone is going to get left out, and unfortunately, right now that person is you. Complaining about it again won't get you anywhere. However, you've made your officers aware of it, so if anyone else brings up the matter, you won't be a lone voice anymore.
Until more people have an issue with the schedule, the officers have to keep it as is for the good of the guild. Rescheduling raids is not a trivial matter -- there are potentially devastating consequences. If you reschedule to a time that people don't like, your attendance can drop, your progression can grind to a halt, and before you know it, your best raiders are jumping ship.
My advice to you, for now, if you really can't make your guild's schedule as it exists, is either (a.) try to start your own raiding group during the times you can make it (without, of course, "poaching" from the other scheduled raids), (b.) give up on making those raids regularly and be content filling in when you can, or (c.) look for another guild.
If you stick around for Cataclysm, however, you may get lucky. It's a long shot, but it's possible that other people's schedules will change, and the officers will need to move progression raids to weeknights. You may find the schedule altered to your benefit.
It's also a possibility that lapsed players will return to the guild for the expansion and the influx will prefer a weeknight. You could form a new 10-player raiding group with them.
On the other hand, the expansion may also bring changes that don't help you very much. Your guild will have to choose whether to focus on 10-player or 25-player raids. If they choose the former, you could be left out in the cold.
Whatever you choose, I wish you luck!
Jump around
We spent most of the last two months as a 12-person guild, just enough for a 10-man with backups, but some guilds are going stagnant until Cataclysm, and we are getting an influx of new raiders. My leader feels overwhelmed at the moment because he hates not being a part of whatever the guild is doing, so he likes to be at all raids. We need to convince him that we are capable without his help, and that he can kick back and maybe do something he enjoys more than jumping in raids all the time. Do you have any suggestions on us doing this beyond going behind his back to raid without him?
Scir
Hi, Scir. You absolutely should not go behind his back. That will only make him feel hurt and betrayed. Purposeful deception is never a good strategy.
For people who are in leadership positions, it can be really tough to let go, even a little bit. I would continue to offer to let him sit out, making sure he knows you're happy to have him along but concerned that he will burn himself out. Be up front about it.
If he expresses his feelings of being overwhelmed to you, suggest that he take a step back. Offer to help him with any of the duties he normally handles. Remind him that other officers can help out also.
Unless you pay for his internet service, you can't force him to take a break. All you can do is present the option and hope he eventually takes you up on it. Only he knows his own limits. If you can get him to sit out once or twice and the raid goes smoothly without him, he'll feel less compelled to "jump in" every time.
One other option is to suggest a break for the entire guild. After all, I don't recommend raiding full-time right up until the next expansion launches. You want your members to be refreshed and excited about the new content, not shell-shocked by endless attempts on heroic Sindragosa. Take a week or two to recharge everyone's batteries -- your guild leader included -- and you'll all be much happier heading into the Bastion of Twilight at 85.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas and suggestions at scott@wow.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Asaoirc Sep 13th 2010 1:38PM
Quick question myself - Have they upgraded the GuildUI so that one can see more than 500 Guidies in the window if there are more than 500?
Syrande Sep 13th 2010 6:27PM
Tom Chilton answered that in the last question of this interview.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/07/05/designing-world-of-warcraft-tom-chilton-interview/4/
though it is Blizzard, so things can always change!
Asaoirc Sep 14th 2010 6:50PM
Thanks for the update - us big guilds will enjoy knowing just HOW big we are!
clundgren Sep 13th 2010 1:44PM
@Andy on the Outside,
Consider starting your own 10 man at a time that is convenient to you, and opening it up to guild alts, since it sounds like most of the mains in your guild are spoken for. While alts usually aren't as well geared at first, the players know the fights and generally have a high level of competence, so progression will happen quickly. And I bet you'll find lots of people in your guild have alts that they love almost as much or more than their mains at this late stage of Wrath.
Good luck!
Clevins Sep 13th 2010 1:55PM
But first, clear it with the officers in your guild (if it's an in-guild event). I think stepping up and offering to lead a weekday 10 man is a great solution, but you want to avoid the appearance of poaching etc. Guilds are different - some don't mind anyone who wants to leading a raid, others insist on a designated RL leading them, etc.
However, I think you'll need to find a new guild in the long run unless you can convince them to do a weekday raid in Cata. It's not reasonable to think they should reschedule their weekend raids that currently work just for you and if they're not willing to also have weekday raids (in addition to the weekend ones), then you'll be back here when we allhit 85 and raid in cata.
Dane Bramage Sep 13th 2010 2:45PM
absulutely... you can't expect them to make room for you in a group that you cannot commit to.
if the guild is large enough, start another group. talk to the officers about it, post it on the website (if you have one) and put together your own group.
if that's not a possibility, then you will probably have to find a new guild. i agree with your GM... it's more your problem then the guild's. you joined a raiding guild that raids when you can't. they are not gonna change raid night for one person.
good luck. i hope it works out for you.
vinniedcleaner Sep 13th 2010 2:58PM
I had the same problem in reverse, with a twist.
I joined a 'raiding' guild (Chicken on Rice/Dark Iron) because they needed help getting their members attuned to Kara. (I was already attuned). When I joined, I was (and still am) only available on weekends. Everything was great, with promises of kara runs after everyone was attuned. Then as soon as I helped them get attuned (btw, I never want to see Black Morass again) 'they' decided to change the raiding schedule to weekdays, late night, leaving me out in the cold.
I haven't done a raid since.
GI_Prophet Sep 13th 2010 3:05PM
Really it just sounds like he needs a new guild. It took me a long time to find one that can be competitive in progression but still raids less than 9 hours a week. It took me six months and a server transfer but I found it and I've never been happier.
Besides you can always keep an alt in the old guild to chat now and then.
Govt Baby Sep 13th 2010 1:56PM
Dear Andy on the Outside,
It sounds like you somehow managed to get into this guild, but contribute little at this point other than to complain about how 10 mans are run, and when the 25 raid is scheduled. To help resolve your heart wrenching dilemma, here's my advice: FIND ANOTHER GUILD FFS!
Seriously, why do people act like there is only one guild on their server???
freyal Sep 13th 2010 5:36PM
Because some people invest emotionally in their guild. He mentioned he'd been there for over a year. That's a long time. If / when he leaves he will quite possibly anger, hurt, or otherwise strain his relationships with friends he has in that guild. Sure he'll meet new people to bond with,but initially it will be awkward. I'm not saying it's impossible to stay friends with former guild mates when you leave, there is certainly a right and wrong way in which to leave. But from my experience, no matter how you try to ease the transition, and keep in touch, only a few of your friends will actually still be friendly at the level you were at before.
Guilds in game have a strange quality to them. In one way, it's like summer camp -- when you meet people at summer camp you are bonded with them, and spend everyday with them, doing summer camp activities. But remove the bond of summer camp, the glue if you will on the relationship, add in new friends, different locations, and suddenly people don't write as much as they say they will, and people drift off. Suddenly you don't get the inside jokes that develop through raiding. You are an outsider on the drama/loot dealings, etc.
Guilds are not quite like summer camp in that summer camp is brief and lasts only a few months. Not an entire year. They become for many people, the entire experience of what their wow game is like. Their guild -is- their game. Sure people have outside friends, but the bulk of the time you spend in game is with your guild.
Deep down the author knows he has 3 choices really.
Suck it up, feel left out, and deal with a situation which prevents him from raiding or feeling like part of the team.
Try and make his own raid group/find a weekly pug to participate in.
Or leave.
He probably already knows he needs to leave. He more than likely wrote to get the push he needed to do so.
Jennifer Sep 13th 2010 2:11PM
"One other option is to suggest a break for the entire guild."
This. Don't wait for people to start to get burnt out. Whenever the opportunity presents itself, take a break.
I've learned this from my current guild leader, actually. Back when we were getting ready to tackle Sindy, we had a rough weekend. No big deal, everyone has rough weekends. But rather than taking a fresh stab at it the next weekend, he went further and declared the next weekend a non-raiding weekend. Likewise, this past weekend, several people were on vacation, so instead of trying to put something together, he just decided that this would be another non-raiding weekend. I think he tries to, if the opportunity presents itself, give us a weekend of non-raiding about once every 1.5-2 months. It works out amazingly.
Edymnion Sep 13th 2010 2:30PM
If you're not able to get in on the raids, its a good time to question if you should even be in that raiding guild in the first place. Raiding guilds tend to be hard nosed about showing up to raids and only letting those that they know they can rely on to attend (which is the crux of your problem). If you can't make their raid schedules, they aren't going to change just for you, so it may be time to find a new guild.
In the short term, try sitting around in Trade on the weekends and see how much raid pugging is going on. If there is a good amount, you may not even need a guild to raid with in the first place. Stay in the one you're in now if you like the people, and just pug your raids on the side. I know the pugging is good on my server, and I have passed a 6k gearscore and gotten up to the Lich King while being in a guild that only just recently managed to reliably do the weekly raid quests (most of the time).
In the long run, once Cataclysm hits, you won't need a raiding guild at all. 10 man raids will be available through the dungeon finder, and 10 mans will share loot tables with 25 mans (only difference is that 25 will drop more per kill). Raids will also be much shorter than ICC (more like VoA), so hopefully we will be able to queue up for a raid as easily as we do now for heroics. At that point, raiding guilds will only be for the highly dedicated few that simply must have realm firsts, and to make getting guild xp easier by doing guild raid runs. Everyone else will likely fall off into lower pressure social guilds.
Viator Sep 13th 2010 4:00PM
just wondering how long dps will have to wait in the looking for raid-queue to find one ....
clundgren Sep 13th 2010 4:15PM
Another option is to become the "go-to guy" that is willing to join a raid in progress whenever you can. In my guild, I can't make every scheduled raiding event, so I accept that I am not at the top of the list, and am always ready to go when I can be online and am called on. Most days that I raid I get to be there for the whole thing, but other times I join in partway through when someone else has to drop for whatever reason. I find that my officers like having a solid raider on standby, and I've still gotten to see all the content I wanted.
clundgren Sep 13th 2010 4:16PM
For my 25, that is.
brammage Sep 13th 2010 4:59PM
Looks like Cataclysm is going to spell the end of a lot of smaller guilds. Too bad. It would be nice if they'd allow small guilds to form formal alliances for advancement purposes.
freyal Sep 13th 2010 5:40PM
I predict the opposite actually. With changes to raiding, being 10 or 25 man driven instead of both, I can see elite people, splintering off and forming smaller guilds, with just the core group they want, and none of the riff raff in between.
brammage Sep 13th 2010 5:50PM
I think we have different definitions of "small guild". I'm thinking of the little family guilds like the one in the article, or my own guild with just three people in it. Our guild has been around since vanilla WoW, but now we're talking about finally calling it quits.
Prissa Sep 13th 2010 7:24PM
But why? If you've survived since vanilla with the guild that you have, what's changing now? These are only guild perks. Not guild necessities. If the lure of raiding and pvp etc. wasn't enough to break you up, how is it a guild companion pet or something is?
You can still do all the things you've been doing in the past, and you'll simply get the same rewards for how you did it in the past.
Adoisin Sep 13th 2010 6:42PM
Speaking as a guild leader of a mid sized guild, I avoid doing every single little thing with my guild possible. I love my guild mates, and we all get along, but I am a much better raider and happier person if I am not forced to log in and do ICC 7 days a week. I go to our 25 man, and one of the 10 mans we have. That's enough.
I have fantastic officers to handle things when I am not there. My guildies know they can go to an officer or come to me when I log on if there is a problem. Everyone is mature enough to play without me holding their hand. I know that getting a guild up and running can be an intensive process. At some point you have to trust folks to handle it without hovering over them constantly.
Scir's guild leader needs to delegate to people he knows and trusts or he will eventually disband the guild in a fit of nerdrage. :P