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9-15-2010 @ 8:25PM
Avenger's Shield hit's fairly hard, but not much more than say, heroic throw. And nowhere near where shield slam has been hitting for on beta. A warrior who Shouts>Heroic Throw>Charge>Shield Slam will build up far more threat than a pally who goes AS>Judge>CS>Sotr. It's not going to be a gamebreaking difference, except for on tight DPS races in line with Hodir HM, where you need to be able let the DPS loose ASAP.I'm a firm believer that tanking classes should all have the same general toolbox. The same number of cooldowns, a pulling mechanism, the ability to generate threat, the ability to interrupt, within a certain margin. But one of the major flaws of the current overhaul is that it's destabilized the tanking balance that they spent all of wrath trying to get right. Now you've got druid tanks with 2 cooldowns, and DKs with 5. Paladins still lack a reliable interrupt, while Warriors have several. Paladins are now the only class that cannot debuff multiple mobs with the AP/AS debuff. All the tinkering is nice, but it's leaving some systemic flaws that I feel need to be corrected.
9-16-2010 @ 2:41AM
I agree it's not going to be game changing and I'm not sure where I implied that it was. The proc on Grand Crusader is mainly meant to fill in empty GCDs and change up the rotation a bit. Paladins do have a reliable interrupt in Hammer of Justice. There is a line tagged at the end of the Vindication talent that says "... In addition, your Hammer of Justice will interrupt creatures that are immune to stuns." So, if you can't stun it, you'll still be able to interrupt it (providing the spell can be interrupted). Also, the language on Avenger's Shield can be implied to say that it will also interrupt if it doesn't silence, but I haven't had a chance to actually test that particular part of it.For Attack Power debuff, Hammer of the Righteous can spread that around to multiple mobs at once. However, you are right about only being able to do single target on the Attack Speed debuff.As for tanking cooldowns, I'm not really concerned as much with the number as I am the uptime and quality of the cooldowns as compared to how the class functions in battle. If a class is already fairly tanky and their health goes down slowly, but steadily, then they really don't need cooldowns. If the class is a bit squishier and has to manage cooldowns in order to stay competitive then they need more cooldowns (or at least more uptime on them). Otherwise, it's just an epeen contest on who has more stuff.There's a lot of survivability there, but I really expect them to muck with the details on these a lot. Because of that I'm waiting until a little bit closer to launch before talking too much about them.
9-16-2010 @ 3:22AM
@ Gregg reeceA reliable interrupt is one that is off the GCD, and on a 10-15 second CD. Kick, Mind Freeze, Pummel, Shield Bash, Wind Shear, rebuke, are all reliable interrupts. HoJ is on the GCD with a one minute CD. For fights where interrupts are key, it is typically a 2.0-2.5 second cast. If you hit a spell right before the cast begins, you're looking at only a 500 ms window to actually get the interrupt off. That's unreasonable.Vindication only affects the primary target of Hotr on Beta. Only one target. DKs can pestilence, and Warriors and Druids can demo, and get all the mobs attacking them, while paladins will be taking much more damage.And tanking CDs are extremely important in raid content. Being able to reliably chain many CDs made DKs by far the most effective tanks in T7 and T8 content, and only having one CD, despite it being the most powerful single tanking CD, cause paladins to be nearly useless on encounters like OS 3D, Vezax HM, Thorim HM, Mimiron HM, and Iron Council HM. There will always be encounters with massive Burst damage that needs to be mitigated with a CD rotation, and the tank that can provide their own CD each time, rather than taking up other players GCDs to provide externals will be favored in progression. It happened in BC, it happened in wrath, and it will happen in cataclysm.
9-16-2010 @ 1:08PM
@DragonFireKaiBlizzard has made it fairly clear that they want the melee DPS specs to do the interrupts and not the tanks. Yes, there are tanks that "have a reliable interrupt" using your definitions, but having DPS do it was the reason retribution was given it as the talented ability Rebuke instead of it being moved baseline for paladins. Between rogues, shaman, feral druids, warriors, dks, ret pallies, and I think even hunters that if the tank has to be the one worrying about interrupts that you need to fire your DPS and recruit new ones. Yes, it's nice to have additional toys, but there are 4-39 other people who can possibly provide them depending on what level of PvE you're playing.The AP/AS debuffs, I really don't care at the moment. I'm not going to be facing 7-10 trash mobs at once anymore except in rare occasions. We've got one of the more reliable blocks in the game and can take the punishment. On boss fights, it's rare for a single tank to be grabbing multiple bosses at once, so being able to hit multiple bosses with those debuffs is also not much to worry about.DKs were the tanks they were in T7 and T8 because they weren't balanced at all. Their number of cooldowns was fine, but the cooldowns weren't balanced to begin with. At that time you could run 5 level appropriate blood specced DKs through BC dungeons without needing a healer. However, yes, the primary reason these overpowered cooldowns were so effective was the massive boss damage mechanics you mentioned. The reason for these massive damage mechanics were that healers virtually couldn't run out of mana. They had to make the healers cast as much as possible, because managing mana was a joke.In Cataclysm, the healing game is changing which also means the boss damage mechanics are also going to be changing. We're not going to see the exact same type of damage components in boss fights, because A) the healers would run out of mana. B) everyone has more health than they used to. C) bosses (in normal modes) will be hitting for less so that the time between alive and dead is no longer 1 healing GCD. We should be able to take 5-10 hits before dying instead of the 2 it is now.All in all, I don't care what someone else's toolbox looks like. I just care that mine works and does the job it needs to do.
9-16-2010 @ 2:18PM
@greg reeseAll tanks except paladins have a reliable interrupt. Your wording makes it sound like it maybe there's another tank in the same boat.I call complete BS. I've run heroic Lady Deathwhisper on my prot paladin and it is a nightmare watching her frost bolts not being interrupted by these other "DPS spec" just ignore them. If they're going to make prot paladins feel more like warriors because they thought prot paladins were too faceroll, then give us more tools so we actually have something to do against a battle complexity like spells that need to be interrupted.Fair is fair
9-17-2010 @ 3:21AM
@Greg reeceBlizzard never said that they don't want tanks handling interrupts. and Paladins are the only tank without one at the moment. Druids have skull bash on a 10 second Cooldown, DKs have Mind Freeze on a 10 second CD, Warriors have Shield Bash on a 12 second CD, and Pummel on a ten second CD. All off the GCD. Paladins have Hammer of Justice on a 60 second CD, on the GCD. That's a noticable disadvantage. As for not tanking multiple mobs. I've tanked multiple bosses on every council fight released. I tanked two members of the Iron Council, two members of the Blood Prince council, two members of the Wizard of Oz in Kara. I've tanked multiple adds on practically every fight that has them. Lady Deathwhisper, Gunship, Valithria, and the Lich King, in ICC alone. These style of encounters will continue in Cataclysm, as the Twilight Council and the Conclave of the Wind show 2 council fights in the first tier alone.You're confusing the bosses with absurd melee damage, like Ignis and XT, with the bosses that had reliable burst abilities that require CDs, like Sarth, Steelbreaker, Hodir, Mimiron, Vezax, and Algalon. The absurd melee damage has been toned down since Ulduar, however, fights like Gormak, Anubarak, Festergut, Sindragosa, and the Lich King show that the cooldown rotation model of boss damage is alive and well. Those are the fights where multiple cooldowns shine, and those, aside from Gormak, were all fights that DKs excelled at.The change to incoming damage has been harkened as a return to BC style encounters. Where... tanks stacked stam, were integral parts of interrupt rotations, and lived and died by CD rotations on encounters like Illidan and Felmyst. In the ICC raiding environment, there isn't a single boss that can two shot a decently geared tank with a non timed attack. Festergut's inhales are on a timer, as is Sindragosa's blistering cold, the shambling Horror's enrage, and the Lich King's Soul reaper. survival CDs are no longer the provebial "Oh Shit button", they are to be saved for a specific point in an encounter, and if you slip up, and miss the CD, or pop it early, the raid will wipe. It's not designed to challenge healers, because if the CD is there, the damage is nothing special, it's designed to challenge raid coordination. If your tank can handle them all, by himself, you stand a much better chance of success than if you had to rely on two or three other players to handle that on top of their normal duties.
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