Ghostcrawler explains hit scaling in Cataclysm

Essentially, bosses will get more powerful as the raid tiers grow in number, requiring players to attain new hit levels to stay hit-capped. The bosses are, in essence, getting stronger as you also grow in strength, which makes perfect sense. It's also very nice to see Ghostcrawler having a really excellent discussion about this subject with players, considering hit is a really weird and convoluted stat to begin with. Hopefully, with Cataclysm's new tooltip features and hit rating helpers, the mysteries behind hit rating will be less challenging for most players. Check out Ghostcrawler's posts behind the jump.
You're too focused on hit alone.
This piece of gear wouldn't exist, but to save me from having to make three versions, consider this series of boots:
Level 83 quest blues with 10 attack power, 10 Stamina, 10 crit, 10 hit, 10 parry.
Level 85 quest blues with 12 attack power, 12 Stamina, 12 crit, 12 hit, 12 parry.
Level 85 tier 1 raid with 14 attack power, 14 Stamina, 14 crit, 14 hit, 14 parry.
Level 85 tier 2 raid with 16 attack power, 16 Stamina, 16 crit, 16 hit, 16 parry.
When yo go from level 83 to level 85 you stay at the same amount of power relative to creatures. Why? Because the creatures are gaining levels. Their health goes up, so you need that extra AP. Their damage goes up, so you need that extra health. Your chance to crit and hit and parry them goes down, so you need those stats as well.
So far, so good.
When you start raiding, the bosses are level 88. This makes them a little harder to hit and everything, so you need that extra budget on your gear to keep up. Still not a problem.
Now let's look at the final piece of gear. You're going from a tier 1 raid to a tier 2 raid. The boss hits harder so you need that health. The boss has more health, so you need that attack power. But the boss is still level 88 like he was in tier 1. This means you crit him more than the previous boss, because your crit went up. You do more damage to the harder boss than to the easier boss. You also hit him more (unless you're hit capped, which you probably are) and you parry him more.
We solved, in an awkward way, the parry problem in Icecrown by putting a debuff on you. That basically allowed the creatures to scale with your gear. We couldn't solve the crit or hit problems, so players just became more and more powerful and eventually capped those stats (or got close to it in the case of crit). Just as players are often very worried (and sometimes rightfully so) about not scaling with gear, the bosses were not scaling with your gear. All of those problems that can happen to players when their damage (or healing or tanking) don't scale were happening to the bosses. You were scaling too well with crit, hit and parry.
A different way to go would be that the tier 2 raid boss is actually level 89 or 90 instead of level 88. Then you'd naturally need more crit and hit and parry to face him. That makes intuitive sense, but it does some weird things to our game because creature levels were never intended to be used that way. For example, the boss would get crushing blows and resists. Even worse, it does weird things to the next tier of content. If Deathwing at the end of Cataclysm (spoiler!) is a level 93 boss, then what is the first boss at the end of the next expansion? Level 93? Level 90? Level 96?
Instead, we are just faking the bosses gaining levels. We haven't worked out the exact mechanic yet, but imagine they are level 88++ or level 88.3 or level 88 SKULL SKULL BAD SKULL. As you get more powerful and get better gear, they get more powerful... exactly like all those bosses you handled while leveling up. Rather than critting and hitting the more dangerous opponents more often, your relative power stays about the same. You scale.
This piece of gear wouldn't exist, but to save me from having to make three versions, consider this series of boots:
Level 83 quest blues with 10 attack power, 10 Stamina, 10 crit, 10 hit, 10 parry.
Level 85 quest blues with 12 attack power, 12 Stamina, 12 crit, 12 hit, 12 parry.
Level 85 tier 1 raid with 14 attack power, 14 Stamina, 14 crit, 14 hit, 14 parry.
Level 85 tier 2 raid with 16 attack power, 16 Stamina, 16 crit, 16 hit, 16 parry.
When yo go from level 83 to level 85 you stay at the same amount of power relative to creatures. Why? Because the creatures are gaining levels. Their health goes up, so you need that extra AP. Their damage goes up, so you need that extra health. Your chance to crit and hit and parry them goes down, so you need those stats as well.
So far, so good.
When you start raiding, the bosses are level 88. This makes them a little harder to hit and everything, so you need that extra budget on your gear to keep up. Still not a problem.
Now let's look at the final piece of gear. You're going from a tier 1 raid to a tier 2 raid. The boss hits harder so you need that health. The boss has more health, so you need that attack power. But the boss is still level 88 like he was in tier 1. This means you crit him more than the previous boss, because your crit went up. You do more damage to the harder boss than to the easier boss. You also hit him more (unless you're hit capped, which you probably are) and you parry him more.
We solved, in an awkward way, the parry problem in Icecrown by putting a debuff on you. That basically allowed the creatures to scale with your gear. We couldn't solve the crit or hit problems, so players just became more and more powerful and eventually capped those stats (or got close to it in the case of crit). Just as players are often very worried (and sometimes rightfully so) about not scaling with gear, the bosses were not scaling with your gear. All of those problems that can happen to players when their damage (or healing or tanking) don't scale were happening to the bosses. You were scaling too well with crit, hit and parry.
A different way to go would be that the tier 2 raid boss is actually level 89 or 90 instead of level 88. Then you'd naturally need more crit and hit and parry to face him. That makes intuitive sense, but it does some weird things to our game because creature levels were never intended to be used that way. For example, the boss would get crushing blows and resists. Even worse, it does weird things to the next tier of content. If Deathwing at the end of Cataclysm (spoiler!) is a level 93 boss, then what is the first boss at the end of the next expansion? Level 93? Level 90? Level 96?
Instead, we are just faking the bosses gaining levels. We haven't worked out the exact mechanic yet, but imagine they are level 88++ or level 88.3 or level 88 SKULL SKULL BAD SKULL. As you get more powerful and get better gear, they get more powerful... exactly like all those bosses you handled while leveling up. Rather than critting and hitting the more dangerous opponents more often, your relative power stays about the same. You scale.
Quote:
That goes straight to customer satisfaction and longevity of the game. The more you play, the more powerful you should become. Not the weaker.
That goes straight to customer satisfaction and longevity of the game. The more you play, the more powerful you should become. Not the weaker.
You do get more powerful. You get more powerful in an absolute sense, but not in a relative sense, because the challenges you can face become more powerful too. It is a fundamental pillar of RPG design othat as you get more powerful, you are able to handle more powerful opponents. Games lose their steam pretty quickly if you become more powerful and just use that power to steamroll the same weak opponents. Where is the glory in that?
Quote:
Hit will never be an interesting stat as long as there's a hard cap on it.
Hit will never be an interesting stat as long as there's a hard cap on it.
I know this is an old argument, but this is *why* we think hit is an interesting stat. If you could just stack hit forever, you probably would, because it's a very good stat. Some of the biggest decisions to be made about gearing come when you have to engineer enough but not too much of this one stat so that you can focus on the others. We want you to look at stats other than just ilevel. Otherwise, we might as well just give all the armor and weapons a power stat, and you just pick whichever has the most power. Hit keeps you from just stacking your best stat. Maybe it doesn't add a ton of depth to say "stack hit, then stack your best stat" but it does add some.
Filed under: Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Juanin Sep 22nd 2010 12:09AM
Nice explanation. It is sometimes annoying to find a lot of hit on armor pieces when you really don't need them. Now that there is a justification for that, it should be good times.
Juanin Sep 22nd 2010 12:10AM
*don't need it. Damn my English is bad today.
Noctune Sep 22nd 2010 12:21PM
Well i partly doesn't agree with that statement because its going to mess ppl gear up when running lower raids in the endgame ... you might be over the hit cap for lower raids. witch means you need more gear one with hit one without ....
DracMonster Sep 22nd 2010 3:16PM
I dont think this is going to be a big deal except for rabid min-maxers. By the time you're overgeared, your guild generally considers that instance a joke and isn't that bothered about everyone optimizing for it anyway.
Grovinofdarkhour Sep 22nd 2010 4:11PM
At least for hunters, around the TOC days and when ICC was still brand new, it was incredibly easy to have twice the hit rating you actually needed, especially if you hadn't respec'd away from 3/3 Focused Aim yet. There were a couple months where I'd nearly always pass on a slight upgrade if it had hit on it and there was anyone else in the raid who could use it.
cygerstorm Sep 22nd 2010 12:10AM
level 88 SKULL SKULL BAD SKULL.
I want this on my UI.
Microtonal Sep 22nd 2010 12:11AM
"level 88 SKULL SKULL BAD SKULL"
New favorite GC quote.
Duulket Sep 22nd 2010 8:48AM
GC promised me a Level 88 SKULL SKULL BAD SKULL
Noyou Sep 22nd 2010 12:33AM
"If Deathwing at the end of Cataclysm (spoiler!)..." Classic.
Cure4Living Sep 22nd 2010 4:17AM
Yes in much the same way Arthas was the last boss in Wrath or Illidan was the last boss in Burning Crusade, oh wait...
Grovinofdarkhour Sep 22nd 2010 4:13PM
If you wanna get really technical, Cure, Halion was actually the "last boss in Wrath".
thepunctuator Sep 22nd 2010 5:30PM
I think that was the point. Arthas was not the last boss of Wrath and Illidan was not the last boss of BC. :p
Koskun Sep 22nd 2010 12:35AM
I can see good and bad with this.
The good is it can make the bosses last longer, and thus the raids last longer. Since a boss will be scaling to your gear and your level it should/will do exactly what they intend. I imagine some tweaking will be required for a while while they fine tune that line of able to kill/unable to kill/make you work for it.
The bad is I can see this being mathed out pretty quickly and Gearscore is going to become more of a requirement from the idiots.
Xayíde Sep 22nd 2010 1:01AM
I don't understand your bad... What does GS have to do with anything? You mean it will be harder to mess up by being way over the cap, hence GS will say how good your gear is more accurately?
fatherland Sep 22nd 2010 2:07AM
Raid bosses have always scaled with gear; that's why later raid bosses have more health pools or higher DPS requirements than ones in earlier tiers of content. All this is saying is that the hit stat is going to scale as well.
The whole "you will need more hit for THIS guy" thing seems kind of like a DPS version of the decision making process healers use to evaluate regen. It's simply one more stat you have to take into consideration when planning out your gear.
Adam Sep 22nd 2010 12:42AM
"LEVEL 88 SKULL SKULL BAD SKULL" is the name of my L80ETC cover band...
Alchemistmerlin Sep 22nd 2010 10:53AM
Cover Band is the name of my Paul and Storm cover band.
Xayíde Sep 22nd 2010 12:58AM
Very nice. Now the pieces with 76543x10²³ hit rating on them may make more sense. Maybe we won't have to see as many huntards with 10% hit over the cap (you know, the Mark of Supremacy syndrome).
I agree when he says it's an interesting stat (it's actually the only one you can mess up as a caster). I just wish it didn't have a HARD cap for most specs. It pains me to know there are points in my gear that are doing absolutely nothing for me (when I'm over the cap), even if they are just a few...
I also think it's weird that ranged weapon attacks have the same cap as melee ones (single wielding). It should be much harder to hit an arrow (or any ranged attack for that matter, e.g., spells) at the enemy than hitting it in melee range.
Starraven Sep 22nd 2010 1:22AM
"I agree when he says it's an interesting stat (it's actually the only one you can mess up as a caster). I just wish it didn't have a HARD cap for most specs. It pains me to know there are points in my gear that are doing absolutely nothing for me (when I'm over the cap), even if they are just a few"
Let's hope that reforging will eliminate some of this problem. I haven't had a lot of time to play with it on the PTR, but from what I have seen so far it looks like it might make some of those wasted points more useful as other stats.
Desmentia Sep 22nd 2010 1:33AM
Having swordfought against armies containing archers (go Google "belegarth numenor" if you're interested) in real life, I must say that arrows hit MORE than melee weapons, not less. But then, shields also dramatically improve offense, and a shield wall takes three people to do, so...