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9-23-2010 @ 4:01AM
Sure, Orgrim didn't drink the blood of Mannoroth ... but given that he still led the genocidal campaign across Azeroth, it's hard to sympathise with him. It's like saying "Sure, I butchered that busload of orphans and made their bones into furniture, but I wasn't drunk at the time!". On the contrary, being in full control of his actions makes those actions *worse*. Ultimately, Orgrim was far too content to go along with Gul'dan's plans, no matter where they led. About the best you can say for him is that he wasn't Grom Hellscream. I /spat on the Harvest Festival questgiver outside Orgrimmar when he wanted me to go honor Grom.
9-23-2010 @ 5:40AM
Why is it that when a person or character in lore does the right thing, for the wrong reasons they're herald as a Hero?However, when a person or character does the wrong thing, for the right reason, they suddenly become a pariah?Both Ogrim and Grom were facing the extinction of their people, be that by genocide or starvation. Both made poor decisions that in the end served their purpose, the survival of the Orcs. There's a reason why Grom is still known as The Redeemer.What most people tend to overlook is that even for their noble and shamanistic tendencies, most Orcs by nature and nurture of their clans, are prideful warriors. This is what led them to the poor decisions they made. It's easy to love Thrall, but don't forget, he was raised by Humans. Not that all humans are perfect...
9-23-2010 @ 6:25PM
Well... I guess the body-count would be one reason. Supposedly, Arthas started doing the wrong things for the "right" reasons (though I'm not convinced). He's pretty universally loathed by both sides. We are talking about people who slaughtered not just soldiers but innocents in astounding numbers. For me, that's a clincher. :)
9-24-2010 @ 12:45AM
DreyjaI'm sorry but the logic behind "body count for one" fails because you can't make an objective decision on what's acceptable. Meaning where do you draw the line? Ten deaths? One Hundred? A million? There are too many factors for this to pan out well logically.To clarify where I'm coming from, I'm most definitely a Moral Skeptic. I deny the fact that morality, as such exists outside of language. There are moral opinions that seem universal (within the context of humanity). They may come very close but fail to be truth under any type of objective scrutiny. Morality is not a rock. But mostly because we're not talking about Fraggles.That being said, I judge actions by intent and outcome. In the case of Ogrim and Grom this makes passing judgment difficult for me.For me, it's difficult to look at Orcs and say, "this one did this, and that one did that, and that would be pretty crappy if they did it in real life."For one, we're talking about a race of extraterrestrial beings in a fantasy universe. And two, as in too as well, even in their own universe we can't judge Orcs by human standards. Which is also the point I was trying to make by referencing Thrall.Characters like Varian and Arthas, being human, CAN be judged by their actions relative to what we expect of humans. Whether we limit this examination to a game world or not because human culture in Warcraft IS modeled after our own.
9-24-2010 @ 6:02PM
Well in that case we are coming at this from opposite ends of the spectrum because killing innocents is wrong. End. Period. Universal. The relativism you speak of is more alien to me than Orcs are. I don't think we can really have a conversation about this becuase as long as the other races are people then there are some moral standards. /shrug Ah well. Yeah there is not definite line in what number is "acceptable" but I was meaning it in a broader sense. Arthas, Grom, Ogrimm... etc - they swept through lands and slaughtered everyone in their wake. I don't see how species has anything to do with it.
9-24-2010 @ 11:36PM
Well sure we can have a conversation about this. It's difficult in that I have no idea if you'll see this reply, so maybe this isn't the place. However two people don't have to agree to discuss something, in fact conversations are generally more interesting when there are opposing views on the subject.For the record though I'm not a Moral Relativist, I have opinions, but that doesn't make them truth. I think killing innocent people is wrong as well. I'm just not going to internalize my feelings on the matter and hold a fantasy creature to the same standard I would a human. Species has everything to do with it because like I said, morality isn't actually universal, and condemning a race by standards they can't meet isn't exactly fair. I understand that this is bordering on hyperbole but I just don't see how else to put it.If you had a child, let's say they are five years old, do they really know right from wrong? Would most kindergartners understand that killing something is morally wrong? Maybe, but it's not the same kind of knowing or understanding that an adult has.Moving on, I think my original point could be clarified by comparison.The Kaldori and their lust for Magic led to the Sundering. All of those events led to countless deaths, innocent deaths as well. From their perspective, and the perspective of their apologists, they weren't doing anything morally wrong, just reckless. The outcome however was bloody horrible. Wrong thing (tampering with magic), right reason (power and knowledge).I just don't see the same kind of reviled hatred for the Night Elves that is often directed at Orcs. And that's what I don't understand.
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