Cataclysm: Justice and valor point drop rates revealed
by Mathew McCurley 
Oct 6th 2010 at 12:30PM
Ulvareth -- Justice Point Drop QuantitiesAlthough we've revealed some details of the conversion process (forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=14574620794&sid=1), many of you have asked how many Justice and Valor Points bosses and daily dungeons will actually award. This list is incomplete, and the values may still change, but it covers the majority of the content we've been asked about.
Lich King Heroic dungeon boss -- 16 Justice Points
Lich King daily normal dungeon -- 12 Justice Points
Lich King daily Heroic dungeon -- 23 Justice Points
Lich King raid boss -- 23 Justice Points
Cataclysm Heroic dungeon boss -- 75 Justice Points
Cataclysm daily normal dungeon -- 75 Justice Points
Cataclysm daily Heroic dungeon -- 75 Valor Points
Cataclysm 10-player raid boss -- 75 Valor Points
Cataclysm 25-player raid boss -- 105 Valor Points
It's important to note that once you outgrow content, by leveling past it by a predetermined amount, you'll no longer gain points. The 'outgrown' level for end-game Wrath of the Lich King content is likely to be level 81. Once you level beyond Lich King content you'll still be able to enter the dungeons, kill bosses, and see their drops, but they will not award you with points. This same principle applies to all content that provides Justice Points, including content from The Burning Crusade.
Lich King Heroic dungeon boss -- 16 Justice Points
Lich King daily normal dungeon -- 12 Justice Points
Lich King daily Heroic dungeon -- 23 Justice Points
Lich King raid boss -- 23 Justice Points
Cataclysm Heroic dungeon boss -- 75 Justice Points
Cataclysm daily normal dungeon -- 75 Justice Points
Cataclysm daily Heroic dungeon -- 75 Valor Points
Cataclysm 10-player raid boss -- 75 Valor Points
Cataclysm 25-player raid boss -- 105 Valor Points
It's important to note that once you outgrow content, by leveling past it by a predetermined amount, you'll no longer gain points. The 'outgrown' level for end-game Wrath of the Lich King content is likely to be level 81. Once you level beyond Lich King content you'll still be able to enter the dungeons, kill bosses, and see their drops, but they will not award you with points. This same principle applies to all content that provides Justice Points, including content from The Burning Crusade.
Blizzard has said in the past that 25-man content would reward players with a faster avenue to hitting their point caps for the week, and now we see how. An extra 30 valor points are awarded per raid boss in 25-man. For those of you sticking to 10-man content, it most likely means that you'll be doing your daily heroic in Cataclysm more often than a strict 25-man raider.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
eevzy.rar Oct 6th 2010 12:38PM
Not bad.
Eyhk Oct 7th 2010 5:11PM
One thing I did notice that is bad is a combination of two restrictions:
1. You can't spend points on gear where you don't meet the level requirement.
2. You can't gain points past the point cap or past whatever points you are at conversion time if you are over the point cap.
This means: If you are swimming in badges right now, already have all heirlooms, all badge/tier gear, and nothing to spend badges on, you will have no badge income until 85 where you can finally spend points.
It seems the best bet would be to spend enough now (or right after conversion depending on cost) on primordinal saronite or gems to put you below the point cap enough to where you can keep earning points while leveling.
Daethar Oct 6th 2010 12:42PM
It looks like all those complaints and predictions about the death of 25 mans were for nothing. Sure, they may not drop higher quality loot, but anyone working through new content will see their valor point gear 40% faster for the extra organization involved. Also, IIRC, 25 man bosses will be more difficult than 10 man bosses, but not in a proportion equal to having X many extra DPS/healers.
Galestrom Oct 6th 2010 12:51PM
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop on keeping 25's viable. I honestly think that the sheer numbers will make things easier in some respects, as 25's will have a greater breadth of tools to use to counter a given boss.
I'm also hoping that countering a given boss is what it will be all about.
That's right, all I want for Cataclysm is Raid Boss AI. =)
Meatwadz Oct 6th 2010 1:02PM
It has been clearly stated that 10 man and 25 man content will be tuned for equal difficulty.
I have always raided 10 man strict and tbh what makes people think 10 mans are easier is that most groups already outgear the raid the second they zone in. It is easy to kill LK in icc10 when everything he drops is already a downgrade for you.
The new system will negate the gear issue and prove both raid instances equally challenging.
theRaptor Oct 6th 2010 1:03PM
The "death of 25's" stuff was really about the decent players ditching the dead wood that makes up the other 15 in most 25 guilds.
Top server guilds are still going to stay 25 because the extra organisation is trivial to them (and they will do anything for a slight min/max) but the question is whether the bulk of guilds shift more towards 10's.
I know that if my current guild died I doubt I would ever go 25's again (and at least in Cata we can just run some 10's instead of searching for benchwarmers to make numbers).
clundgren Oct 6th 2010 1:03PM
Eh, my experience is that 25 versions of bosses are almost always harder than 10 mans for the same reason that herding 25 cats is tougher than herding 10. It's not about having more tools to solve the problem, its about having more people standing in the defile, biting the wrong target, not collapsing on the orb, etc.
Meatwadz Oct 6th 2010 1:06PM
Oh and 25 man guilds will likely progress faster considering that the extra justice points they drop = faster gearing.
I'm not sure if they are keeping the "farm badges for gear, upgrade gear from boss tokens" style. I would personally prefer to see it go back to the tier token drop system. Getting that final tier piece from the last raid boss was a symbol of accomplishment you could proudly wear around town.
Grovinofdarkhour Oct 6th 2010 2:06PM
Actually, I always found 25s harder to organize, but easier to do once you're in them. This is easily explained via the TMR, or Total Moron Ratio.
If a 10-man has one total moron in it, that group is 1/10, or 10%, total moron.
If a 25-man has one total moron in it, that group is only 1/25, or 4%, total moron.
The more you run with people and filter out the total morons over time, the greater proportion of your friends list/raid team/future groups will be nonmoron, and the greater your chance of success.
So a 25-man group that has to bring along one total moron will suffer less than half as much as a 10-man group that has to do the same. So if you're in one of those groups that have a "house moron" or two they can't get rid of, and can get predominantly competent players for the extra 15, you're better off doing 25-mans where the incompetence of your house morons is less damaging to overall group success.
Eirik Oct 6th 2010 2:24PM
@grovinofthedarkhour: I lol'd at the thought of an experience bar, whereby you convert (level up) a Total Moron through Newbie to Competent Raider. But the raid has to divert some of its experience to leveling up the TMs, and pugs generally aren't willing to do so. (Thus, "putting up with" rather than "teaching".)
Pugs. Pekingese. Ancient Chinese Genetic Experiments!
Rakah Oct 6th 2010 2:37PM
well since they backpeddled on how raid lockouts will work (can switch em both ways except for Hc) perhaps you'll see less 10 man normal guild. I guess alot more import is gonna be placed on Hc.
Here's to hoping the actually tune the fights with fresh mechanics like ulduar or putricide etc rather than more boss hp + damage
P.S. i concur on the TMR thing. if your on a crud server you can't always get rid of idiots.
Pyromelter Oct 6th 2010 3:18PM
"but anyone working through new content will see their valor point gear 40% faster for the extra organization involved."
First point: 1 - (75/105) x 100% = 28.57% faster
Second point: In the time it takes to organize all that raid content and fight through the wipes and fail of a lot of 25man groups, I could probably run a cataclysm heroic dungeon and come out with more VP than the 25 man raid in the same time frame.
Third Point: The biggest issue that I see is how much loot will drop per boss. If it's 2 items in 10man, and 6 in 25man, that's just not a high enough ratio to warrant putting up with 25 man raids. If it's 7 or 8 drops per boss, that might actually get people to thinking about doing it; if they drop 5 or less, I can see 25mans really falling off hard.
Final Point: I will wait and see how much loot will drop per boss before I make any final judgment on what I will do in cataclysm, and to make a prediction about 10s v. 25s.
Rassia Oct 6th 2010 6:08PM
Man, maybe I'm stupid, but from how I see it, you fail at math.
"First point: 1 - (75/105) x 100% = 28.57% faster"
105 / 75 = 1.40 As in, 105 is 140% of 75, thus a 40% increase over 75.
Maybe you meant 1-(105/75) x100% = 40% ?
Secondly 8 loot per boss? Let's review.
Assuming 10 man is 2/boss, that'd be .2 drops per raider per boss.
If 25 was 5/boss, that'd be .2 drops per raider per boss. So at 6, we'd not only be at equilibrium, but we'd have surpassed it. Why on earth would they need to go to 7 or 8? That's ridiculous, a third of the raid getting loot every kill? It would break the entire model of WoW endgame as we know it. Honestly, we'll be lucky if we get 5.
Throatslit Oct 6th 2010 4:38PM
Just quickly Pyro:
105 is 40% larger than 75. So people receiving 105 points per boss DO get 40% more points for their "efforts". Your maths is correct when looking at it from the other way: 75 is 28% less than 105, but you are not correct in saying that they receive 28% more.
Meiam Oct 6th 2010 5:28PM
Total moron ration doesn't work that way, if on average you get 1 TMR in 10 man then on average youll get 2.5 in 25 man, in other word you have 50% chance that you have a higher TM ration in 25 man than 10 man aka its harder. Also since you can lose the fight because of 1 TM in both 10 and 25 man (you lose 1 dps and fall 1% short of the enrage timer) this make 25 man harder since there's more dps (1 dps on 6 failing less likely than 1 on 16 failing). They could change it so that the enrage timer aren't so strict but then you,re removing challenge which remove satisfaction which remove fun.
Also WTF do I care about reaching my emblem cap faster, wether I reach it tuesday or monday is irrelevant in the long run, so this is barely a + for 25 man, as someone said it the time sink to organize could be used to run a 25 man Heroic instead. It all come down to number of loot drop, anything short of 7:2 for 25 man and its not worth it.
Norrel Oct 6th 2010 5:33PM
@ Throatslit
Pyro is right. The original statement was referring to how long it takes to get your gear, not the rate at which you are acquiring it. If you are getting 40% more points/gear per week, then you will end up getting it 28.57% faster.
thebitterfig Oct 6th 2010 6:07PM
A large number (not all) but a large number of 25m fights are structurally easier than 10s due to the number of sub-roles required. The biggest example of this is Blood Prince Council, where you have a lot more flexibility in 25m for assigning individual tanks to each prince, for having several people dedicated to keeping the orbs afloat, and so forth. Now, the tuning is often the deciding factor here, with 10m versions often being adjusted down in terms of required numbers in order to allow more people to double-up on roles. Such fights with a lot of special mechanics, group-spits, and so forth wund up being easier simply because you've got a lot more flexibility in raid comp, beyond tank-healer-dps.
Pyromelter Oct 6th 2010 6:56PM
"If 25 was 5/boss, that'd be .2 drops per raider per boss. So at 6, we'd not only be at equilibrium, but we'd have surpassed it. Why on earth would they need to go to 7 or 8? That's ridiculous, a third of the raid getting loot every kill? It would break the entire model of WoW endgame as we know it. Honestly, we'll be lucky if we get 5."
My contention is that if 25 mans are at equilibrium with 10mans in terms of ratio (1 drop for every 5 people), then there is no extra incentive to run 25 mans. I believe for 25 mans to continue to have any kind of popularity outside of hardcore guilds, loot drops must surpass the 10 man ratio. I think 6 drops won't be enough of a difference. This is just my belief, I have no scientific evidence to back up my statement, rather just my own gut feelings on the matter.
If 25 mans drop 5 pieces or less, I feel there will be a massive flight to 10mans, as there would be no loot incentive versus 25 mans.
Eberron Oct 6th 2010 7:26PM
This depends on how extreme the proposed cap on weekly Valor points is. If it works out, like I suspect it will, that doing a full clear of current content 25 man stuff nets you your cap then I suspect doing your heroic daily random + weekly quest + 10m content will net you the same amount of Valor points.
Which i don't mind, I'd much rather play the game then spend time organizing people. XD
icepyro Oct 7th 2010 12:04AM
You know... Blizz did come right out and say when they originally announced the 10/25 getting the same loot that 25man raids will get a better ratio of loot to compensate, which most have long since took to mean at least 6 since 2/10man will likely be the case.
I wonder if it will be 40% more loot like the 40% more valor points which would mean if the boss drops 2 pieces in 10, then that actually means a perfect 7 in 25man, which sounds about right to me.