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10-09-2010 @ 12:28AM
I'm a little curious how anyone could justify batching together dozens or hundreds of dissimilar items and posting them with one click. To me, that seems to be the very definition of botting. When you add in automated undercutting and automated pulling of auctions that have been undercut, you've moved very definitely into the realm of professional botter.And, frankly, just because it's been tolerated until now does not make this a legal and justified way of making money.To use a real world example, this would be like saying that because steroids have been tolerated in the past in professional baseball, we should all just shrug and ignore current use of steroids in professional baseball.Kudos to Blizzard for implementing this change.
10-09-2010 @ 12:39AM
Actually, a better real-world example would be to say, "while steroids have been kind of ignored in the past they're still illegal and against the rules of the game, so there should be better enforcement." Which has little to do with the existing crop of AH addons, which are not only not illegal, they're directly within the domain of the ToU. I can't just post auctions while I'm AFK- I have to say, "hey, post the stuff in my bags" by interacting. So the best real-world example would be something about the olympic committee arguing about whether or not really expensive swimsuits should be allowed in competition, given that they have a proven ability to improve time, but are not broadly available (and are not currently against the rules). Of course, that example also fails, because QA3 is broadly available.The difference is a botter can use a third party program to automate the running back and forth between AH, Bank, and Mailbox, and can continually shift from post to cancel and back without actually doing anything. Good third-party programs won't behave exactly the same each time, there can be enough randomness built into it to make it relatively hard to spot with automated systems.So yeah, "to you" that seems like the definition of botting. To me, it sounds like tomato is the very definition of baseball. We're both wrong.
10-09-2010 @ 1:02AM
The AH addons are not "faster swimsuits", they're robots that dive, swim, turn at the walls, and collect the trophy for you.If I write a program that runs to the mob, kills it, loots it, and skins it, is that a bot? The obvious answer is yes. It doesn't matter whether or not I am there to push the button to get it all started, it obviously violates the "one hardware event per action" rule.An auction bot which batches dissimilar items, undercuts automatically and continuously throughout the auction process, removes items from auction that have been undercut automatically...is that same sort of bot. Again, a bot isn't necessarily something you can leave running at your computer, it's anything which automates something so entirely that you're not actually involved anywhere except at the beginning.And, interesting historical sports fact: Steroids use was never officially addressed in baseball until 1991, when a memo was circulated but never enforced.
10-09-2010 @ 1:44AM
I'll try one more time with this.The vast majority of the work I do when glyphing is not posting glyphs. Even after this change goes through, that will still not be the case. Buying herbs, milling herbs, queuing glyphs, trading for inks and vellum, actually crafting glyphs. That takes a lot of time.Also, I spend a lot of time at the mailbox counting my gold. And swimming in it, but I digress.I add intelligence to the system at all times- I know when to buy herbs (when the herb botters dump their wares on the AH), I know when the other scribes post their wares, I know which glyphs sell well and which are dogs. I make a *lot* of decisions. The only decisions I leave up to the addon is how to specifically price my glyph, which is a tool that's been around for ages (I've been using Auctioneer since literally WoW 1.7 or so).So yeah, blizzard is going to make the actual posting element of this process more grindy. I already spend a couple hours out of every 48 doing the herb/mill/craft/post process. My time commitment will go up. Those decisions you bemoan? The software will STILL make them. The difference? I click 345 times to create my auctions instead of 4 times (I can't post all my glyphs at once as it is, since there's barely enough bagspace on one alt, including all my bank bags, to hold my stock. This is, parenthetically, the *real* problem with the glyph market, not addons).Does that bug me? Yeah. Is it the end of the world? No.The reason I keep posting in this thread (and I think xkcd has just told me to stop with this one), is because all of you people who think that this will somehow improve your AH experience are dead wrong.This change will make prices go up, and will make the AH no more accessible to "casual" users. All it will do is break the hardcore repeat-posters that actually AFK for hours at a time and continuously undercut using stuff like QAPoster (not QA3, but a separate addition). That's what this is all about. It's not about those annoying 1-stacks of bullets or infinite dust (still possible), or that mean dude who undercuts you (still gonna happen), or the fact that you can't quite afford a mechano-hog (go farm more lichbloom, it sells like hotcakes and often at 30+ gold/stack).Anyway, enough of all this. I'm for bed. I hope all y'all get back to me on this in a few months and tell me that I was dead wrong. In december, tell me that there's no more botsploitation of the AH, that it's easier to sell your wares without being undercut, and items are selling for reasonable prices. And that all these changes started with this single nerf to AH utility.I'm looking forward to that.
10-09-2010 @ 2:16AM
First of all, my "ah experience" as you so eloquently express it, is limited to the posting of various raw materials I run across while questing, raiding, etc. I've never been one to play the AH...but even if I had, I guarantee you I would not have used the addon's you're lamenting the loss of - it feels to evidently of a bot for me to be comfortable using it.In the end, it doesn't matter how much work you put into the AH, if the end result of the process is a bot program. I doubt Blizzard's intent here is to make the AH more grindy - rather, it's an attempt to limit the bots that can be used. I think they're heading in the right direction. It does no good to ban botters if you leave the ability to bot in the game - you're going to see those same botters (or others) back doing the same thing in a week. Destroying the ability to bot is a lot more effective in the end.Granted, we'll probably always see bots of one sort or another - but that doesn't mean Blizzard should stop disabling their ability to bot. Just because someone gets murdered every day in this country doesn't mean we should stop prosecuting murderers. :PAs for the AH being less accessible - I think you'll be surprised. You don't often see casual posters on the AH - but this is because their auctions, underpriced, are usually snapped up so quickly by the botting AH sitters that nobody else gets to see their auctions. Whether prices go up or not, removing the ability to bot can only help the game economy, not ruin it.And, worst case - I'm perfectly capable of getting things on my own, without resorting to the AH. I imagine I'm no smarter in this regard than any other player.
10-09-2010 @ 3:48AM
The whole thing about "these addons are not against the rules" thing is bunk, the addons themselves might be fine, but if you're using them to dynamically post auctions while not at your computer and a GM comes looking, you'll get banned. I don't think QA3 is a huge issue by itself, but the plugin for it that was advertised on this site a few weeks ago clearly crossed the line, and I would say that's what forced Blizzard's hand.
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