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10-11-2010 @ 1:03PM
Does anyone else have a hard time getting into the lore/story of old gods? The thing that sucks me into blizzard lore is the complexity of the characters. Complete and utter evil without any real reason or back story as to how that being or beings became evil just doesn't seem to make me care. I have a really hard time suspending my disbelief.
10-11-2010 @ 1:06PM
You try being trapped underground for that long and see if you don't wanna eyebeam the crap out of 40 people.
10-11-2010 @ 1:09PM
I suspect that lore surrounding the Old Gods is sketchy simply because we don't know that much about them yet. Brann's been too busy with Titans to bother with the gooey Old Ones.
10-11-2010 @ 1:15PM
Well, how does the Joker rank with you as a villain? I can't say much for his origins (with only the movies and the cartoons under my belt), but he's pretty much the "evil for the sake of evil" sort of villain. It's difficult to delve into "elder ones" and other creation-level creatures because they're practically forces of nature. They don't do what they do for any conceivable (to us) reason, they just . . . are.
The old gods are a part of azeroth. They were here when the titans first came to this world and remade it to suit life. In their haste or ineptitude, they did not completely destroy them, simply imprisoned them deep within the world. They are dark beings, who only strive to make the world their own. They have been imprisoned since the world became what it is.So they aren't just "evil lol". There is actually quite a bit of lore backing up their existence if you look for it. I believe that there was even a column on the subject here if you wanted to search for it. Because of their prisons, they have worked for millennia to find a way out, and the only avenue open to them is the current corruption they now exert on the world. If they were freed, they would destroy this world completely and claim it for themselves.
10-11-2010 @ 1:19PM
This won't be a satisfying answer, but one way I look at it is that the motivational system of the old gods is incomprehensible to mere mortals, such as the players.And I don't mean incomprehensible in the sense of being non-sensical. I mean, we just don't have the capacity to understand. It's like an ant trying to understand the motivations of a human.This goes back to the Lovecraftian origins of the old gods. The idea that if you actually understood the motivations of the old gods you'd go insane.As I said, this isn't really a satisfying answer. But I think it's one that fits into the setting.
10-11-2010 @ 1:54PM
When considering the Old Gods, many people point to the Lovecraft mythos as a source of sorts; however, for motivation of the Old Gods, you could look at Moorcock's Elric series as he depicts the war between the Gods of Law and the Gods of Chaos. The Gods of Chaos/Old Gods want the chaos of all possibilities, which ultimately leads to a type of stagnation via lack of progress and complete uncertainty (all distinctions are lost or at least strongly blurred). The Gods of Law/Titans insist on the order given by laws which follow a rather ridged path towards some unknow (to us) end. Which one is 'evil' depends on your point of view about thing like certainty/uncertainty, fate/free will, etc.Sorry, just my two cents.
10-11-2010 @ 2:19PM
@MethuusIf you replace "Old Gods" with "Internet Troll" you get the same thing....ohshi-
10-11-2010 @ 2:21PM
The old gods aren't evil the same way the Burning Legion is evil; the old gods just like their stuff the way it was before the Titans came in to spruce things up.Old Gods: "Hey! Where's all the cardboard I had over the windows! And my blacklight posters! Where's my Syd Barret era Pink Floyd blacklight posters! I LIKED those!"Titans: "Really, I thought your place was waaaaay too dingy. And scary. And all chaos-worshippy and stuff. Don't you like these new window treatments from Pier 1? They'll really go with the taupe and lime color scheme I have picked out."Old Gods: "That's it -- my and my bros are gonna undo all these crappy interior decorating you did, AND drive all your little buddies totally insane."Titans: "Hmm... well, I guess we;ll just make some clockwork gnomes and dwarves and cat-centaurs made of rock. That'll teach you the importance of proper Feng Shui!"And... that's curtain on Scene One.
10-11-2010 @ 2:26PM
There is a bit of conflicting information on the timeline of early Azeroth - What came first, the Titans or the Old Gods? Some tellings have the Old Gods on Azeroth along with their Elemental Lords when the Titans first arrive, others have the Titans begin shaping Azeroth, only to have the process interrupted by the arrival of the Old Gods.The Old Gods are not entities of evil, but more entities of Chaos. The Titans, on the other hand, are entities that strive to bring Order to the universe. So they encountered Old Gods on Azeroth - beings that were the antithesis of their mindset - and decided that they could not allow the Old Gods to continue in their current existence.However, they discovered that removing the Old Gods would be detrimental to the planet, and so instead buried them in the ground and set about their plans to bring Order to Azeroth - while at the same time installing some Watchers to keep an eye on the imprisoned Old Gods and evolving up some Dragons. The Old Gods elemental armies were banished to their respective elemental planes.So the Old God's we've encountered so far aren't necessarily driven entirely by "evil." They're seeking revenge on the Titans by both trying to reclaim Azeroth but at the same time adding a bit of Chaos to the creations of the Old Gods - seen in things such as the "Curse of Flesh" as well as driving Nefarian the Earthwarder insane.
10-11-2010 @ 2:28PM
The Old Gods are straight out of HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. They are ultimate evil, unfathomable darkness that truthfully make Sargeras look like a choir boy. The great thing about it? The fact that people weren't paying enough attention to the signs. It is funny how the heroes could kill C'thun and Yogg-Saron, and not realize that there was something more going on here. I like it. No, I LOVE it. Azeroth is about to get schooled by the most ancient of Eldritch horrors and I'm going to laugh through the whole wild ride.
10-11-2010 @ 2:38PM
They are Q.
10-11-2010 @ 2:59PM
I think you guys are missing my question. I'm not asking about the lore of the Old Gods. I am asking about how you feel about their story (or lack thereof). I understand that Old Gods are based off of Lovecraft and are "evil incarnate." I will also give you that "the motivational system of the old gods is incomprehensible to mere mortals."My feeling is that because of these things, there is no connection to the story for me. There is nothing to draw me in. No fall from grace, no tragedy, no comedy.Someone mentioned The Joker. I don' think that is a fair comparison, as the Joker is still human, and has an origin you can find out about, or at least imagine how he came to be based on real-life psychopathic killers. There is no origin for Old Gods. They just are, and what they are is evil, without any explanation, rhyme, or reason. I find this very unsatisfying, and it makes me feel disinterested towards the Old Gods because I just can't suspend my disbelief in their stories.So, I will ask the question again: Does anyone else have a hard time getting into the lore/story of old gods?
10-11-2010 @ 3:19PM
I have a hard time suspending my disbelief with the origins and backstory of things that happened thousands or millions or billions of years before the first humans is fully known and understood by everyone around. That's extraordinarily unrealistic. How on Azeroth would anyone know the answers to half the questions they apparently know? Frankly, in the lore setting right now, there's all ready too much information about the origins and actions of titans and such to be even remotely realistic. It totally destroys any suspension of disbelief and highlights "it's just a game" at every term. "You know this because you read it in the game manual..." Yeah, that's immersive.
10-11-2010 @ 3:30PM
Ugh... "at every *turn*." WTB edit button.To directly answer your restated question, as long as there's still mystery and unanswered questions surrounding the origins and motives of the Old Gods, it'll be an easy story to "get into" and be interested it. If it were fully explained and was no longer in any way mysterious, then it would be a hard to get into. It then becomes trivia about the past rather than an ongoing story, a mystery to explore...
10-11-2010 @ 3:31PM
"Does anyone else have a hard time getting into the lore/story of old gods?"No.Long answer: They're a different kind of enemy. They're an inexorable (until you beat them up with 9 other people) force that will not only ignore your pleas for mercy, they might not even be capable of hearing them. They're more linked to the horror genre, which you don't seem to be interested in. You're more interested in fighting maladjusted people that you can identify with to an extent and possibly redeem. That's fair. Those characters are certainly more complex and provide better plot elements.But I'll be honest, I'm kind of tired of that. I liked the Zerg better when the Overmind was in charge.
10-11-2010 @ 4:25PM
As my TFH version of how this all works, I believe the "Earthmother" is the very special program made just for Azeroth to control and manage all the amazing life of Azeroth. However, since she can only control living things (she obviously has no control over Titan constructs), she created "offspring" to control the Elementals, but she gave them a bit more sentience than ncessary, so they were just children in their understanding of how things worked, and they just had fun playing with the Elementals just like little boys and their "action figures".The Titans eventually picked up on this and returned to Azeroth, finding a world far more chaotic than they would ever have liked, and attempted to remove the Earthmother's offspring from Azeroth, but their connection to the greatest of the Titan's programs was so structured that if they were removed, the Earthmother would be significantly damaged, and they would hate to have to start all over again, so the offspring were simply locked away. But that obviously didn't work, because through their connection to the Earthmother, they were capable of reaching the minds of all of their mother's creations, mainly all the new sentient ones she created by giving some species bipedal locomotion, and even the Dragons, who were created by the Titans but put under her realm of control. The Earthmother had no idea, and has since assumed that the actions made by those under the influence of the Old Gods (even Netharion, and the Titan-built beings in what is now Northrend) were just a natural progression of these beings, through their free will, and allowed them to do whatever, knowing that the free will of all other beings would naturally oppose anything that would harm them all, like the Lich King, and even the Highborne under Queen Azshara. I'd bet she'd be fine with the actions of the Twilight's Hammer cult, just because so many races are joined under a single banner./remove Tinfoil HatI've even been told that there is a being with such a standing in the Lovecraft Mythos, so I feel at least a TINY bit validated, thinking that way.Well, it's that general belief in my mind that draws me to the Old Gods - a failure on the part of the Titans that has since made the beings of Azeroth evolve to become beings so great in general that even Algalon was convinced they were special enough to keep Azeroth intact, even with the threat the Old gods present to them.Though, I'm sure that may change by the end of Cataclysm; if Deathwing's even stronger than Alestraza, and has at least two of the four Elemental Lords on his side, the Earthmother might get "personally" involved in dealing with him.
10-11-2010 @ 4:40PM
-----Pyromelter Oct 11th 2010 2:59PMI think you guys are missing my question. I'm not asking about the lore of the Old Gods. I am asking about how you feel about their story (or lack thereof).-----I like this question more and more as I think it over. Now that I think about it, I'm not all that in to the Old Gods story. It's not like I'm looking forward to the next content patch hoping for more Old God revelations. But that's not the same as liking the story.I like the Old Gods story. It's good background flavor. It provides motivations. It acts as a catalyst for others' actions. And it provides a really great story hook; minions.We've done two big multi-guild / multi-faction PvP RP story archs on our server in the past year. One of the guidelines we wanted to follow was providing the feeling of grand scale but not run counter to Blizzard lore (and avoid dipping too deeply in to the Mary Sue pool). Our two story arcs had to do with the Burning Legion although (for the most part) it was demon free. Representing the Legion were mortal cultists of (ultimately) the Shadow Council. These minions represented the threat of the Legion but were nameless. Their success would have consequences. But their (ultimate) defeat would not endanger running counter to cannon.I like the Old Gods story in that I don't have to understand it all for it to work within my RP world. I need to know it exists. And it provides another convenient group to work with - the Twlight's Hammer (perhaps many more). I can work that in to a story line and have a lot of fun with it. I don't need to know the intricacies of the Old Gods because I'm not going to rent an apartment with them and have to explain odd goings-on to the Titan landlord who's convinced I'm a Watcher.So yeah.... all in all, I like the story. I'm just not wrapped up in it.
10-11-2010 @ 7:00PM
I'd like to thank everyone for their answers, and want to especially shout out to Rude Hero, who gave an excellent viewpoint. "They're more linked to the horror genre, which you don't seem to be interested in. You're more interested in fighting maladjusted people that you can identify with to an extent and possibly redeem. That's fair. Those characters are certainly more complex and provide better plot elements."I never really thought of it this way, but I think you are right. I'm not a fan of horror in general - although I like the occasional action horror game, like F.E.A.R. But I never really enjoy the story of horror games, and other types of horror like Silent Hill I never really got into. And you're definitely right, I'm much more interested in setting right some person or situation right because of the back story. I'm accustomed to RPG's with rich stories and characters, and enjoying the journey exploring those stories and characters. I never realized that Old Gods are more of the horror element, so I have to agree with you completely: It's a more horror-based type of storytelling that I don't really like.Big thanks for that response Rude. Definitely shines a new light on the plot devices for Old Gods.
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