The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Too soon?

Yes, your DPS is too low. Be you arms or fury, yes, absolutely, it is too low. It is not my purpose to dispute this with you or argue with you about it. (I will point out it has already been addressed and you may already see an increase.) Frankly, I fear I have not been contentious enough the past few months. It was hard for me, looking at ICC DPS parses, seeing the highest fury DPS and even seeing my own in those times when I would go off-spec, to worry about fury DPS in 4.0.1. While arms has been low in PvE for quite some time, it was difficult for me to believe that patch 4.0.1 would launch and lower fury DPS so dramatically. I knew that it would lower it. Rage normalization, the loss of the Heroic Strike bug that allowed warriors to get away with so little hit, and the rooting out of armor pen was fated to topple us from our throne and humble us -- there is no disputing this. It was intentional. I could easily have imagined a drop as severe as 80 percent of what warriors were doing in Icecrown in patch 3.3.3 and not have been surprised.
I was, however, surprised by reports of just how far fury fell. I think I failed you in three key regards. I failed to account for the change to Whirlwind making it not an ability we used on cooldown anymore (specifically, I failed to account for its single-target DPS), and I also failed to account for the loss of cross-tree talents like Deep Wounds and Two-Handed Weapon Specialization. Even with the TG penalty removed, TG fury simply can't compete, and arms isn't balanced at all for level 80 anymore since Colossus Smash is out of reach for another level. Raging Blow is a fine ability, but since it is enrage-dependent, it's only useful when you're in an enraged state and therefore cannot serve as rotation filler the way WW did. Combine that with Bloodthirst now on a somewhat overly punishing cooldown (every 3 seconds) and a lack of real rotational options, and fury has become the DPS tree that provides nothing to do or too much to do, depending on procs. At level 85, it's not the worst priority-guided rotation I've ever played, but criticism of it as boring is not without merit. Finally, I failed to realize how sweeping the gem and glyph changes would be and how many people would be basically thrown into relearning their class.
Arms, meanwhile, just plain doesn't push out the numbers at 80. You can game the system to an extent -- gem for strength, get some mastery on gear and get that Strikes of Opportunity chance way up -- but it still ends up being underwhelming in PvE and remarkably bursty in PvP. If you get lucky, you can rock some faces clean off. If the random number generator does not smile upon you, you're probably dead in a global. To some extent, this is just the nature of the pre-expansion beast, but it still feels rotten.

I'm going to get personal here for a moment.
Warriors are the class I love. I've dabbled with and enjoyed my shaman, I've tanked on a DK and enjoyed it, but we all know that I am biased towards and a partisan for warriors and those who play them. Even those warriors I've met who I haven't personally liked for one reason or another can engage me in a conversation about the class, and I can talk about it for hours. Just ask Sacco and McCurley -- they can't get me to shut up about warriors. I love the class's somewhat unique resource system (druids excepted) and I very much enjoy the brutal, no-frills aspect of the class that doesn't use magic.
Now, we all know I prefer tanking to DPS. This doesn't mean I don't love the DPS specs; I raided arms for two years and fury for a year. In fact, I will go so far as to say that no tanking class can remain viable as a tanking class if its off specs are not viable. Warrior tanks rely on a strong and viable DPS off spec for a variety of reasons. It's necessary due to the tanking deflation once one moves from 5- and 10-man content to 25-man, for instance. One tank per five scales perfectly to two tanks per 10-man, but a 25-man raid will almost never require five tanks, and often, it will at most require two for bosses but three for trash. Being able to do something else besides tank relieves pressure on who takes the knee for the night.
It's also necessary because our tanking and DPS mechanics are seemingly inextricable. I don't even know that I consider this a bad thing. But it is an aspect of the class, and it needs to be considered when changing, say, a major strike from an on-next to an instant, or reducing the number of sunders applicable to a target, or changing how shouts work and taking Bloodrage out of the game. Both tanks and DPS warriors need rage, especially in the early moments of a pull.
So when I see DPS so low, I get worried about tanking. A lack of viability to DPS specs leads to tanking issues, but more importantly, it helps lead to tank burnout. I've found that I am a much more contented tank when I feel secure that I can switch specs and still contribute, or when I can take a break and run a few instances as DPS to shift my mindset. Asking players to give up freedom in off-spec choices and talents is fine for creating a more cohesive feeling. I personally think leveling a warrior will be a lot more fun with the 4.0.1 changes. I just hope all that bathwater we're throwing out doesn't contain any babies.
Quick and dirty specs (now with glyphs)
I wanted to talk about specs to try out this week. I'm not going to say that these specs are in any way the best possible specs you can use; they're hardly rigorously tested to ensure they are the maximum performance specs for their respective roles. They more exist to give you something to test out if you're feeling overwhelmed by all the changes.
This arms spec is aimed at middle-of-the-road use. Improved Hamstring and Tactical Mastery would be good options for a more dedicated PvP tree, while a Slam glyph would replace the Bladestorm glyph for PvE usage. This particular arms spec is aimed at throwing Rend around as much as possible with Blood and Thunder. This should get the Blood Frenzy debuff on as many targets as are in range.
This fury spec is also somewhat aimed for either PvE or PvP use. Prime glyphs are no-brainers, while major glyphs are chosen because there's not really any better options for level 80. With fury's DPS as low as it is, it's hard to really be excited for the spec, but if you're a diehard dual wielder, this one should be functional. Give SMF a shot if you have solid 1H weapons to play with.
This protection spec is aimed at main tanking. It lacks Blood and Thunder, which I would consider picking up if I expected to be tanking a lot of adds, but with AoE threat already reduced and the intended paradigm shift to higher CC, I think those points are better spent on Incite. At least while tanking a boss, Incite can be pretty hot for the current content. (Rage doesn't seem to be much of an issue on a single target.) I'm still tweaking what I consider the right build for 80 and may have a lot more to say about all three soon (perhaps even before next week, depending on how fast those rumored buffs come in).
In the end, 4.0.1 has been a pretty hard patch for us. If you love the warrior class and feel disappointed by it, I can wholly relate to your feelings. I personally feel as though I should not have let myself expect things to be adjusted before they were patched in, but I honestly assumed more work would be done on balance before this went live. For that, I apologize. I'd like to say, however, that this is still the best class to play and things will get better for us. We knew rage normalization and mechanics changes would hurt, and now we've seen them about as bad as they could possibly have been. It's all uphill from here.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
Eyhk Oct 15th 2010 1:18PM
They put in a hotfix yesterday and it seems much better. Try it out with the crit gems still in place and see how you like it first.
mcbattle Oct 15th 2010 7:36PM
Yeah I just saw the hotfix updates.
I can't stand going without my warrior so I'm gonna try it, and find a friendly alchemist to help me replace all those gems.
I know Fury doesn't mean to hurt me, it loves me, I can't just leave it behind...
Moobs Oct 15th 2010 11:41AM
Thanks for the proposed talent trees and glyph suggestions!
I only got on to respecc and try a dungeon run this past Tuesday, and I was a little disappointed that I could not hold aggro on groups of mobs in DTK, I never had issue in there before, so i was more than a little shocked. I will be able to log into the game tomorrow and I am looking forward to try your talent builds and glyphs.
Do you think that when things settle down you could discuss the various "possible" rotations for each of the trees?
For Instance I was thinking of this rotation for the Protection tree:
Charge, TC, Rend, Revenge, TC, HS, TC, SW and maybe throw in a CS or BS depending on the situation.
Siaperas Oct 15th 2010 11:42AM
A couple notes on the prot spec. I while I agree right now we're all still looking at what they do, I don't have any points in shield specialization, and right now my rage generalization feels fine after the fight has started. I'm saving shouts for as I'm pulling though to try to maximize my rage going in, so points in shield mastery may help that, but I don't know. Blood and Thunder also refreshes rend on single target fights. I'm finding it very nice for tanking bosses, as I just use it to keep my TC and Rend debuffs up at the boss with one button.
I do have points in Blood Craze instead of cruelty. Right now my threat feels spikey, and that may be why. I feel all over the place. On the frost wyrm before the gunghsip battle, I jumped from being at 88% to stealing it with one shield slam crit. But on the Deathbringer Saurfang fight our mage had to stop dpsing to keep from stealing aggro from the tanks.
Some of the "spikey" might also be some of the fine tuning for the classes. As a note, tanking trash in ICC last night was easier than it has ever been to pick up and hold aggro on a lot of them. Holding aggro on trash last night appeared easier than the night before. Wheter that's because Blizz tweaked something or dps learned to cool their jets, I don't know. These are just some observations for food for thought. I'm stilll reading other people's observations to see what everybody else thinks.
malakor12345 Oct 15th 2010 12:08PM
Ya our dps isn't dead. I was pulling 10k dps completely re gemmed and reforged for haste. While it turns out this isn't even the optimum way of doing it. My friend re gemmed haste and reforged hit and was sitting at 24% hit and 29% haste. He pulled 13k well throughout the night. Our spec is now about getting in as many normal white melee attacks as possible. Our rotation is simply Bloodthirst>Raging Blow>Slam (Bloodsurge only)>Heroic Strike when above 60 rage. When I was in ICC last night there was almost never a time on a boss fight that my enrage went down. And if I did lose an enrage I had an ace in the hole. Berserker rage. We are not a dead dps spec we fury warriors. You just gotta do a little research :D. Now if only those damn mages can get a harder nerf.
Seth Oct 15th 2010 12:10PM
Warriors are essentially using rogue mechanics now. Max out your hit and haste. Bleh.
stevenwoodworth Oct 15th 2010 12:16PM
It's a little too premature to be saying all this isn't it? We aren't at level cap anymore. Everything is unbalanced. I will reserve judgement when I get to 85 on my warrior come Cataclysm.
clundgren Oct 15th 2010 12:46PM
I dunno..Retribution got kicked in the teeth kinda hard too, but I'm finding it difficult to get too worked up about it. I figure if we made it through Vanilla we can make it through anything. It seemed like the hotfix helped a lot, but as with warriors I find my new rotation a bit simple and too rng dependent.
I hate to just say "wait until" 85 because the classes really should be balanced at all levels, but it has been only a few days. I think Rossi and the other writers here have been essentially correct to withhold judgement, and that is what we should all strive for. Absolutely, bring bugs and glaring inequities to the designers' attention, but we don't need to get emotional. At the end of the day it is in Blizzard's interest to keep us all happy, and they've generally done a good of it over the years, as my embarrassing "days played" testifies.
SG Oct 15th 2010 12:55PM
Just some random observations from a purely heroic and t9 geared Arms spec, gemmed for strength:
1.) I reforged haste to mastery to reach a little above 11 mastery, (22% chance for that free hit) and opportunity strikes are around 6-9& of my damage done. Honestly, I have no idea if it's worth it.
2.) In terms of sources of damage done, I'm consistently seeing the top three as MS, OP and then white attacks, in that order. I was surprised by this - I expected white attacks on top, which they were pre-patch - but am unsure how to interpret it beyond using it to guide priority in a rotation.
3.) Blood and Thunder is incredibly good on trash packs. Hell even on 2 targets. I absolutely recommend taking it.
rrerin Oct 15th 2010 1:19PM
I'd be lying if I didn't say I was feeling the wrath of 4.0.1. As a main spec fury warrior I went from top of the heap to literally being out dps'd by our paladin tank on H.Marrowgar. The first two nights after the patch were rough and painful and not fun at all.
I was relieved to hear that GC knew of failing that was warrior dps and said that they would address it. The next day (Thursday) I logged in and ran a couple randoms only to be completely surprised at how much my dps had jumped. Sure, I had to reforge most of my crit into hit rating, but I found that once I was able to get enough rage (which usually took a few seconds into the fight) I was able to spam HS on CD and keep Raging Blow and BT on cooldown. When I was doing this I was able to pull around 7k dps average in places like Hall of Reflection, where the fights are longer and health pools of bosses are larger. Other heroics I 'm still having a problem because by the time I get enough rage to start actually using abilities the mobs are dead. RIP Whirlwind.
I do want to say though that I was impressed at just how much of a dps increase I saw from Wednesday night to Thursday night. Wednesday my HS's were critting for a max of 9K and then yesterday they were critting for 26k. I'm certainly not saying we're back on top, but it's better than it was on Wednesday.
VolcorFeonix Oct 15th 2010 1:21PM
in all honesty, i know i will get slaughtered for this, but... according to MY recount, my single target dps went up, and multi target went down.
Thats right, I said it, My single target went up. Pre patch 4.5k, post patch 5.2k, self buffed, same gear.
Im NOT saying the class is anything like it was before. That would be lying, but changing to 27% hit, then stacking strength and haste made rage flow like water and my rotation solid. I wasnt hitting the 16-17k crits like pre patch (/sadface) but i was hitting crit streaks 5-6 heavy hitting heroic strikes in a row. I top DPS'ed a dungeon over a Boomkin and a Spriest. Not by much mind you, but by a little.
What changed with fury, in my humble opinion, is that we no longer hit like trucks. No longer are the days when we can top DPS by cleave/whirlwind watch crits light up like christmas. What we are is "Lets take the biggest sharp/blunt thing i can find, and hit my oponent in the head a lot".
my hit 26.15%
my haste around 10%
my rotation BS & HS/RB or Slam/BS&HS ~~if i dont have the rage, i put HS with the next GCD, but it takes TOP PRIORITY.
Erogroth Oct 15th 2010 1:25PM
Matt,
We need to talk rotations next. With Heroic strike being an instant now I feel like I have no idea what my tank rotation should be now. Also what are we looking for for stat caps. No more defense so now what? Dodge? Parry? What about hit and haste? What kind of stats should we be looking for at level 80? level 85?
VSUReaper Oct 15th 2010 1:31PM
I honestly have to wonder what the developers were thinking. Little to no mastery, crit taking a small nerf, playstyle was gutted in the case of fury, and the gem we have been gemming almost exclusively for around a year is now gone the way of the dodo. Warriors on the beta reported low DPS and its now obvious that we were ignored.
I understand that its a tricky thing to balance for 80 *and* 85, but what we got was BS. What we got was a half assed attempt.
Prot is about as bad as the others. We are doing low DPS as tanks, our threat is spotty at best in the first 30 seconds, and it just feels rough.
I think Rossi has it about right though.
Jabadabadana Oct 15th 2010 2:45PM
Comments on the proposed tank spec:
I can't drop blood and thunder yet. People AOE too much still, and waiting on that many rezzes just gets in the way of time.
Maybe come Cata I can switch it out for more points in shield specialization.
Also blitz seems like a necessity for initial pull, and field dressing pointless outside of pvp, especially without blood craze.
Just my thoughts.
mrdragonfell Oct 15th 2010 2:56PM
So I actually have switched to arms, changed all my expertise and extra hit to mastery (45% chance to get extra hit) and focused on single target glyphs (inc two for thunderclap) and made an adjustment to the arms rotation by using thunderclap to refresh rend rather than letting it fall off.
solid 12.5 dps on suarfang and this is with a lot of broken mods, no flasks, or haste pots! generally I am a 12-15k dps fury warrior but I noticed after adjusting my hit and getting all setup for fury it really (even after the buff) just isn't working out like I had hoped it would.
In fact the fury rotation pretty much feels like arms now anyway with one less proc! So the way it stands now I see myself as an arms build with a single target dps focus that gets the necessities from arms and the new improved execute from fury with the 2 points in prot for the thunderclap/rend refresh!
I really do love the Arms mastery. at 40% you mastery will actually surpass your white dmg in terms of dps% and generally the rotation and build is a lot of fun! I know we took a little hit now but I have a feeling our new rotations and specs are gonna offer a lot more fun and utility in the end!
mrdragonfell Oct 15th 2010 3:04PM
And also I totally agree with the hit issue. Here is a post talking about the coefficients for hit rating and how they have changed. Now take into account that as fury you get 3% hit for the spec and bosses always have 5% chance for you to miss baked in and your sitting at a sweet spot around 20% hit rating much much higher than before.
I think a lot of the doom and gloom and apprehension about our dmg is caused from lack of knowledge about the new cap, inability to adapt, and unwillingness to see how these advancements in the warrior design will pay off in the future.
In the end i think the rotations are a lot more visceral now and am looking forward to the new gear because even though we are less gear dependent this is only slightly so and everyone should know by now that warriors gear ramps up so our dps doesn't have too :D!
mrdragonfell Oct 15th 2010 3:05PM
http://pverogues.blogspot.com/2010/10/hit-caps-for-rogue-in-patch-401.html
Sry forgot to put the link!
Faceless Minion Oct 15th 2010 3:27PM
It would make more sense for you all to have your panties in a bunch if you posted this BEFORE the day where Ghostcrawler announced they were planning for big buffs for DPS warriors.
You weak-willed, wilting-flower nancies.
Faceless Minion Oct 15th 2010 3:34PM
Seriously, have all you people that keep complaining about low DPS NOT read that the DPS for warriors and ret pallies is being increased? Or are you just wanting to complain just so you can?
thebitterfig Oct 15th 2010 3:55PM
It was a bit of a blow to the old ego to walk into ICC wednesday night after a fair amount of rotation practice and getting all the glyphs and reforging up to date and find that my single target dps dropped by 30%. Went from arpen capped 277/264 gear doing 15.5k on HM-Saurfang down to 10.5k despite being white hit capped, over 10% haste, 40 something crit. So I hear they brought it up, which is good to know, but I think I'm still done with fury.
What kills it for me isn't the damage but the new rotation. BT/RB/BT/free + HS@rage is just unpleasant for me. I like the old BT/WW/free/BT/free/free, particularly with 4t10 to play with, and despite its bugs and shortcomings I loved the next-swing behavior. Queue it up, cancel if needed, swap to cleave if needed, etc. There was a rhythm to the play which just clicked with me in a way the new rotation doesn't. It's like 3.x fury was a waltz in it's 3/4 time, Strauss and the elegance of Vienna, but 4.0 fury is some sort of ghastly Sousa march, and you just can't waltz to a march.
If Black Bruise drops and falls to me, I'll give SMF a try, as much for the awesome look of a badass fist in one hand and a massive sword or axe in the other, but by and large, I'm giving arms a go, or otherwise switching to a ret paladin. The funny thing is I hated the 3.x ret with a passion, but love the new one. It's got the kind of rhythm I enjoy.