Encrypted Text: Finding combat's missing damage

With patch 4.0.1 in our rearview mirror, we've had over a week to fix our addons and get our houses in order. I've already had a few decent raid DPS parses forwarded to me by subtlety rogues, who are finally able to actually do reasonable DPS. Traditionally, there has always been a few "bad" specs in WoW, but subtlety was so bad that it was tier below the other bad specs. Its arrival has brought back several of my old friends from retirement, who were looking forward to the frenetic rotation of finishers.
Assassination rogues have been enjoying the synergy between Vendetta and cooldown like Bloodlust, and their relative DPS is still decent. The addition of Rupture as a finisher and Backstab as an alternate generator has their rotation shaken up a bit, but still easily manageable. I actually found the Mutilate-centric build to be pretty fun to play after the patch, and I'll be using it to raid with for the immediate future. However, it wasn't assassination's playstyle that caused me to promote it to my main spec, but rather combat's current weakness that drove me to enchant my daggers with Mongoose.
Main Gauche: game's worst mechanic?
First, note that I'm not talking about the level 29 white dagger, even though they share a name and an icon. I'm actually referencing the combat tree's current mastery bonus, which allows our main hand attacks to generate extra off-hand attacks for us. Let's be honest, extra attacks are always going to increase our damage. So where's the beef? The issue is that we had to pay such a treasonous cost for such a pitiful bonus, and that fact has left our viability ravaged and destitute.
Main Gauche doesn't play well with others
I have so many gripes about Main Gauche that it's actually hard for me to find a place to start. Let's begin by talking about the fact that the entire mechanic works in complete opposition to every other rogue mechanic in the game. MG favors a quick main-hand weapon, while our instant attacks, poisons and special abilities all clearly benefit from a slower main-hand weapon. The same is true for our off-hand weapon slot, where MG wants a slow weapon, even though Deadly Poison and Combat Potency literally require a quick weapon to be used. Mutilate rogues don't have to worry about the handedness of their weapons, but slow/fast has been a staple of the combat for as long as the spec has existed.
In an expansion that's supposed to be simplifying mechanics for new users, introducing bonuses that are literally in opposition with each other makes no sense. I've already had several emails from rogues asking if swapping to fast/slow is what the future looks like. Before, I could've told them to simply look at their talents and see what they could figure out. Now, they can actually cite one of the tree's defining attributes as the source of their doubt. Main Gauche is literally anti-synergistic.
Hack and Slash had it right
By allowing an off-hand attack to proc an extra main-hand attack, you're leveraging the strengths of both weapon types. In the old days, the majority of our Hack and Slash attacks came from our off-hand weapon, since it would hit so quickly. That granted us extra main-hand attacks, which were incredibly potent due to the higher damage of our main-hand attack. Also note that main-hand attacks aren't affected by the off-hand weapon penalty, further promoting the model of off-hand procs for main-hand attacks to the forefront. It was a beautifully simple mechanic, and it also synergized with every other mechanic of the combat rogue. The fact that our main-hand attacks could also proc extra main-hand attacks was simply icing on the cake.
Now, some of you might say that Main Gauche's ability to proc Combat Potency gives it a leg up on the competition. The truth is that combat rogues really don't need the energy regeneration. We've already got Vitality bolstering our regeneration, our normal off-hand Combat Potency procs, and Adrenaline Rush to give us a boost of energy when needed. All of this doesn't even include the fact that our energy regeneration now scales with haste, giving us enough energy to do just about anything we'd like to. We're already approaching the energy cap during Adrenaline Rush phases, and Killing Spree can cause problems if you use it at the wrong time. We traded massive amounts of damage for excess energy.
All of these issues have put the mastery stat squarely at the bottom of our stat priority list for combat. While mastery isn't particularly amazing for assassination, it's at least as good as hit rating and probably better than critical strike rating. For combat, mastery is literally so bad that you're probably better off reforging to expertise for the few times that you attack mobs from the front. While that's not a serious statement, it gives you an idea on how poorly Main Gauche works with combat's natural synergy and flow.
RIP armor penetration
If we take a look at the new simplified stat system of patch 4.0.1, we really only have five secondary stats available to us. Hit and expertise rating are both amazingly powerful, but both have abrupt and easily-reachable caps. Once we're capped on those two, we're left with the trio of crit, haste and mastery rating. With Prey on the Weak gone, critical strike rating is weak for the combat spec. We've already talked about how awful mastery is, making it easily the worst option available. Finally, haste rating is actually decent, but it's not like we have an option anyway. If our gear already has haste on it, which any non-expertise and non-hit piece will, we can't reforge to it.
Combat used to have a second powerful stat, armor penetration, that allowed us to scale competitively in Icecrown Citadel and beyond. Even then, critical strike rating was more powerful than it is today. However, we're currently left with a completely broken mastery bonus and just a single valuable secondary stat that's already on all of our gear. These scaling problems aren't going to be fixed quickly or easily, and I don't see combat DPS recovering without an overhaul to Main Gauche or some stealth buffs (no pun intended). The worst fact is that these aren't problems that will be fixed by Cataclysm or level 85. Bad scaling is bad scaling, and unless mastery or crit suddenly becomes valuable, we're going to be stuck in the same loop.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news





Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Riley Oct 20th 2010 4:24PM
before 4.0 i was always top dps, i dont know what you're talking about
rask Oct 20th 2010 3:07PM
I'm also a die-hard combat rogue. I can't help but wonder if Slow/Fast or Slow/Slow are the only options? Poisons can be swapped around, so we should run some spreadsheets on Fast/Slow and Fast/Fast as well.
Natarm Oct 20th 2010 4:37PM
Chase: Wouldn't two slow weapons and stacked Haste rating make that mastery more attractive?
IE: A stat priority akin to Hit/Expertise to cap, followed by Haste, then Crit, then Mastery?
Given that haste works on a percentage of attack speed, slower weapons gain higher benefit, correct?
Chase Christian Oct 20th 2010 5:26PM
If you look at the formula for haste, it affects slow weapons and quick weapons equally. This means that a 2.6 speed weapon gets the same benefit from 30% haste that a dagger does. It's because it's not 30% faster swings, it's 30% more attacks. Slow weapons are ALWAYS going to generate less energy via Combat Potency at every single level of haste, and they will ALWAYS proc less Deadly Poison, etc. No level of haste even changes the ratio.
james Oct 20th 2010 5:19PM
Not too sure how the majority of readers feel about the information provided.
Damage and talent spec scaling has always been a touchy subject to dwell on. But in so far, i fail to see a problem
has anyone forgotten that instant attacks account for a very large proportion of MH attacks?
Procs arent always about the white, auto attacks... Especially when combat rogues have so much energy regen. Put two and two together and I expect that you will see a fairly consistent supply of procs
Also combat rogues now benefit from ambidexterity, so i'm a little confused about how these bonus off-hand attacks will suffer form the off-hand damage penalty.. Unless the bonus 75% weapon damage applies to final weapon damage AFTER the penalty.
In which case it is fairly minor. Aside from the fact that, ideally you will use a fast weapon with a lower damage range - i dont see a problem there.
If procs benefit from combat potency, all the better.
Chase Christian Oct 20th 2010 5:27PM
We're not talking about theoretical damage or future implementations, we're talking about current live damage. It's awful.
Dan Oct 20th 2010 5:49PM
Blizzard said a lonnnnnng time ago that they were going to push rogues into using daggers instead of swords, maces, etc. Now the two viable specs both require daggers in order to be very competitive. Perhaps it's not 'broken' but 'intended'. Did they go too far with making combat bad? Probably, but the point is that it's Combat's turn to take the back seat. We have been using combat primarily since early 2.0. We're going back to basics and going to daggers. Embrace the change, friends. Or, reroll is always an option.
Zahira Oct 20th 2010 7:59PM
Dear Blizzard.
My DPS numbers were low so I reforged a bunch of my gear for mastery...It made it worse, so I just wasted a bunch of gold for nothing. I hate what you did to the combat spec, my combat rogue has always been my main and the character I've done all my achievements on and now I don't even want to play her.
I've lost easily 2k dps, I want it back blizz, keep your damn recuperation (which is awesome BTW) and give me back my dps and I'll promise not to complain ever again about being squishy.
Thank you
thebitterfig Oct 20th 2010 11:11PM
There is at least one clear reason why Main Gauche is so bad. The numbers are too low.
MG has a 1.25% chance per point of mastery to proc an attack for 87.5% of weapon damage (50% offhand penalty, increased by 75%).
Compare to the 1.8% chance per point of mastery to proc a 100% attack on a MM hunter, or the 2% chance to proc a 110% damage attack on an Arms Warrior. Yes, there are differences in attack speed, but there are differences in weapon damage, too.
Even if it does have a negative synergy with standard rogue gearing, it could be decent if the numbers were high enough. However, they aren't.
jordan Oct 21st 2010 2:59AM
Maybe if the offhand attacks were to hit for something like 250% damage...
hshaft Oct 21st 2010 12:30PM
As an Ass Rogue, I am satisfied with our changes: the rotation gained some complexity and dps output is acceptable. And our mastery is pretty good (contrary to Chase's suggestion that it's only mediocre). But as content as I am with my spec, I really feel terrible for my Combat bretheren here. It is obvious to everyone that there is something wrong, but what is the best way to fix it? Once again, thebitterfig is on the nose. They've got to make the Combat Mastery appealing (hell, it's not really even functional at this point). After Haste, Ass is reforging Mastery (assuming expertise cap, spell hit cap, etc). But for Combat, the EP of Mastery is 0.6... that's right, 0.6!!! So up the proc chance to 2.5% per point or even 4% per point. They can always tweak it back down if they have to; that's the beauty of the Mastery "knob". And whoever suggested making Combat Potency a ppm has a good point. They can play with the proc rate there, too, so you'll still have the energy you need, but now you go with slow/slow, making the MG procced off-hand hit stronger (as well as potentially give the bonus Potency proc). Another thought I had was to increase the RvS buff, say from 20% to 30%. Again, they could tweak it back down later if they need to, but it'd be another way to give Com a little more output (that Ass and Sub couldn't tap into).
I've seen a lot of qq from many specs regarding their 4.0.1 damage. And I think most all of them, with the exception of Combat Rogues appear to have been at least addressed in some way. But I have yet to see a Blue post even acknowledging Combat's problem. And no, I don't think it's beacuse "Blizz hates Rogues". Isn't it possible that the devs see the severity of the problem and it's taking longer for them to develop the solution? And while a Blue post would be nice (i.e. "We know it's a problem, but the solution is more complex than we thought... please be patient"), I've got to have faith that they are working on it. It would be pretty disappointing if they just let Combat remain as it is and left a small (but very passionate) group of players hanging.
jordan Oct 21st 2010 2:39AM
Those of you rogues going to Blizzcon, please bring this up in q&a!
Hollow Leviathan Oct 21st 2010 7:58AM
You're only critting for 43 in the new patch? I agree, buff rogues.
santiago.draco Oct 22nd 2010 2:31AM
The recent patch and combat rogue changes has seriously made me want to cancel my Cata CE preorder. Not only did they completely change the dynamic of the class (I used to have fun playing combat (as it was an ideal aoe/mobile single target rogue) where now I feel like a bastardized mutilation rogue (I dispise the fact that I have to use RUPTURE, I want my damage to come from HITS!).
The entire model seems to be so broken that I really don't see how they can fix it in time for the expansion. Raiding guilds in beta, like Paragon, have also reported that it's still broken even at 85, so all this talk about "wait and see it will work at 85!" is shown to be bogus, at least so far.
To make matters worse Blizzard, who has not a single Blue post in the rogue forums since I think February (and that was to tell off a rogue complaining about class issues) has yet to say a single word on the subject.
So what we have is what is supposed to be THE top melee DPS class now far far behind pallys, warriors, deathknights and even caster melee hybrids. This is not the game i signed up for and I sincerely hope Blizzard get's their programs in mind and fixes this problem soonest. I know of a lot of rogues that have shelved their characters due to this issue.
Bumblebee Oct 27th 2010 9:32AM
At Blizzcon on one of the Q&As I think it was either Mr. Street or Mr. Chilton who said that they like the idea of DPS having a ramp up time for optimal effect. Rogues in both Combat and Assassination did just that in LK. I think it is a fairly good model too, since it allows the better players to stand out as the fight goes on. Skill is rewarded, to a degree. Long as everyone will get more out of Bleeds it should help keep the rotation for every spec interesting, and less spammy.
There was also a mention of buffing Combat's Mastery to roughly 4 times to what it is currently. This should at least help with PvE viability. I still think Main Gauche should be changed to something closer to what Hack 'n Slash was. It worked beautifully, and was consistent with how Rogues of all specs would use weapons. Only problem with it was, that it promoted "passive" damage over active use of abilities. It got the job done, though.
I dunno, might be that due to itemization among different dual wielders, and those who want Agility, mainly Enhancement Shaman, it is quite possible, as someone said, that Slow/Slow is what they are aiming at.