Class balance from 1 to 80 getting developer attention
by Matthew Rossi 
Oct 21st 2010 at 4:00PM
Ghostcrawler - Re: Question about design priorityWe are going to spend some effort adjusting numbers for 1-80. It's not as big a priority as 85 because frankly, more players care about balance at 85 than they do lower level balance. As some folks have pointed out, inexperienced players almost by definition, don't place a premium on balance, and experienced players tend to not worry about balance much until they're at max level since things are changing so quickly.
Rather than adjusting everything independently, we tend to focus on max level and then work backwards from there. It doesn't help to nerf say rogue damage by 5% from level 1-60 if we then find we also need to nerf it at level 85 and then buff the 1-60 numbers to compensate.
There is some goofy stuff going on at lower level, but we'll get it all straightened out. After spending so much effort revamping the old zones and quests, we don't want the leveling experience to be an odd one.
Rather than adjusting everything independently, we tend to focus on max level and then work backwards from there. It doesn't help to nerf say rogue damage by 5% from level 1-60 if we then find we also need to nerf it at level 85 and then buff the 1-60 numbers to compensate.
There is some goofy stuff going on at lower level, but we'll get it all straightened out. After spending so much effort revamping the old zones and quests, we don't want the leveling experience to be an odd one.
I wouldn't call it a change of direction, as Blizzard has never said it doesn't adjust lower levels, and clearly a great deal of Cataclysm's focus has been on content for leveling players, but it does show a willingness to make changes in the face of oddities of design. (The original poster notes things like rogues soloing Scarlet Monastery while level-appropriate.) With more people than ever leveling through battlegrounds or the dungeon finder, the lower-level experience is actually pretty compelling and important. It's good to see some design time aimed at fixing its problems.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, News items, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Daethar Oct 21st 2010 4:05PM
Good to hear, I've noticed low level BGs are quite a mess right now. More interesting, for sure, but only fun if you're one of the 4 or 5 specs that are king.
Tom Oct 21st 2010 4:19PM
I wouldn't even say "one of the specs that are king". Pretty much every class has some spell or ability that can crit for 85-90% of the health of other players. It isn't that rogues are smashing face or anything like that, just that everybody one shots everybody else making for a complete mess - the fact that rogues etc are doing so well is just because they usually get to attack first.
I've had a post up on the EU PvP forum talking about 1-60 bgs since 4.01 and I'm glad to hear they are doing something about it. In particular, that they are addressing the abilities and numbers rather than just saying "oh lets make pvp gear, that will solve it".
In terms of PvE - my warlock I'm levelling at the moment two shots every mob her leve (1 shot if it crits) with 2.4 second Soul Fires. It's not fun.
Kaphik Oct 21st 2010 4:21PM
Uh, unless I have gone totally crazy, low level BGs have always been dominated by a few classes per bracket.
sheyki Oct 21st 2010 4:53PM
It wasn't as crazy as it is now. Today my 52 hunter got one shotted by a warrior of the same level with 4000 crit from Mortal Strike(i have 3800hp and i'm with heirlooms)... Also with the new DoT critting system shadow priests and affliction warlocks are having fun time in BGs.
Pyromelter Oct 21st 2010 5:34PM
I saw a blue post that responded to a post that went like this:
OP:
"I got one-shot by a rogue in the 50s bracket. He hit me for 4k. Working as intended?"
Some douchey poster:
"Blizzard balances for endgame. They don't care about lower levels."
Some other douchey guy:
[quote: "Blizzard balances for endgame. They don't care about lower levels."]
(Pyro's note: Don't you hate it when people quote other people witout even making one comment on their own? At least say "I agree" or something)
Blue Follow-up:
[quote: "Blizzard balances for endgame. They don't care about lower levels."]
Actually, we do.
--------------------
Bottom line is I believe it. The recent change to class specifications is making lower level players way more powerful than ever. Look at all the abilites you get at level 10 that you used to have to wait until 30, 40, 50 or even 60: Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Arcane Barrage, Pyroblast, Explosive Shot, Penance, Mind Flay, Mutilate, Shadowstep, Thunderstorm, Lava Lash, Summon Felguard. On top of that, you have the change of intellect and agility which massively buffs lowbies. This is all making the 10-30 experience way easier than it ever was, and is leading to massive class imbalances. Mobs and dungeons are likely undertuned in terms of their health and damage, although some mob packs still do a lot of annoying things that wipe groups (I'm looking at you Dire Maul). If you have heirlooms, you are even more overpowered.
I'm generally not an elitist type who wants people to struggle with hardmode leveling, and I want lowbies to be able to level without too much frustration. But you shouldn't be able to solo a level-appropriate dungeon (the rogue in question was stated as "not twinked.") There's a middle-ground between "frustratingly hard" and "super-god mode ez leveling" - one will force people to quit because of difficulty, the other will provide no challenge and runs the risk of being boring. And on top of that you have battlegrounds which are more popular than ever at low levels.
So I really believe that blizzard will do some balancing to lower levels. My guess is that they will balance around the 9's (19, 29, 39, 49, 59), which will make the twinks and competitors in those brackets more or less happy, and gives them a benchmark with which to balance around.
Superstone Oct 21st 2010 10:43PM
Absolutely great news to hear.
I found it odd that they would start to give level 50 abilities to level 10 players in order to make them "spec-defined" when most new players that they are trying to capture like that won't know what the class was like before anyhow.
Meanwhile, while playing Battlegrounds recently, I found it disturbing that resilience no longer did as much against crit, armor didn't do as much against damage, and stamina is in no way keeping up with the amount of damage that is being given to mid-level players. I HAVE a rogue at 60, and although it's fun for a while to be able to two shot a plate wearer with an ambush/eviscerate combo, I also have other classes and know it is no way fun or fair to be there one second and dead the next, and have to explain to your team the the flag is being capped by a rogue because I can't see the mother-effer until I'm dead.
Enough of my rant. But to put one thing out there. They are getting retarded with the health pools at 85 from the look of it but in the leveling game they don't need that much... Unless you take PvP into account. Here's an idea. Buff Stam from 1-80.
Elunr Oct 21st 2010 4:06PM
So no more Rogues 1 shotting everyone in BGs, and if you don't get killed by rogues, theres always a hunter there willing to kill.
Brimmlinn Oct 23rd 2010 6:08PM
Yes, I would agree that there is a problem in BG's. While working on leveling a Warlock, im currently experiencing the pains of the BG's in the 30's and 40's. It is quite frustrating to be one shot by rogues, and it commonly gets to the point that you cant even leave your graveyard due to being sapped and oneshotted off your ride at the gates. I look forward to a little balancing in the lower levels.
jtrain Oct 21st 2010 4:12PM
I've been running random dungeons w/ my 30's mage, and balance is way off. Warrior tanks are doing DOUBLE the dps of everyone else in the group. There was a point last night where our tank was doing over 400dps while I was doing 150 (and I was 2nd on the list). I have full heirloom gear, too. I can understand a disparity, but having your tank just blow the rest of the group away is a little much. Doesn't send the right message to players leveling up that your tank is God and you're just there for his comic relief.
Ice Oct 21st 2010 4:20PM
This has always happened.
Tanks are on the targets since start to finish and generally seem to do better aoe damage and scale better at leveling and they just get that last push and start push. Their base damage is good but they scale pretty bad unless they have vengeance stacks then they do a looot more than normal dps.
PKthe13thvah Oct 21st 2010 4:25PM
To be perfectly fair, new players probably aren't aware of how much damage they're doing in comparison to the tank, given that they don't have Recount of Skada. By the time they find out about these addons, they know enough about the game to realize that there ARE going to be gross imbalances at low level.
jtrain Oct 21st 2010 4:23PM
In addition to the class imbalance, I gotta say that leveling instances are incredibly easy. Almost to the point of being a joke. I was running level-appropriate instances and we literally pulled entire wings and aoe'd everything down. Runs were taking maybe 10 to 15 minutes tops. Now granted, many are wearing BOA gear, but it isn't much different in straight dungeon blues.
I'm also a little pissed that mages lost their aoe until the 50's i believe. I was just standing next to the tank spamming the crap out of arcane explosion. Didn't seem right that the squishy mage had to be standing right in the thick of things to be doing relevant damage.
Deathknighty Oct 21st 2010 4:41PM
Hehe, my 39 fire mage is a blast in bgs.
I can own a Frost mage of the same level by just chasing him while spamming scorch and throwing insta-pyroblasts that can crit for over 60% of their health.
Firestarter is WAAAAAAAY better than sliced bread.
Wildstaff Oct 21st 2010 4:41PM
I know what you mean I always felt that Arc explo should be a target area effect or one like that priest AE where it hits every target except the one you're targeting
Brett Porter Oct 21st 2010 4:42PM
I'm used to paladins (and sometimes DK's) topping the DPS charts as tanks, but that's because those two classes use damage as a way to build threat, differently than bears and warriors. At least from my experience. Pre 4.0.1, whenever I was DPS in a dungeon with a prot pally, I usually resigned myself to be #2 DPS; sometimes that's not the case, but usually yes.
As the classes got higher level, def at 80, pally tanks lowered their damage compared to DPS, but low level it was always like that. Now with Vengeance on all tanks, they will do more damage all the time. Definitely in low level tanks, haven't really been watching meters (mine weren't working yet) in Heroics.
stephenoellis Oct 21st 2010 5:02PM
@JTrain
Totally agree. Low level instances are way to easy. Blizzard needs to implement some sort of reward/achievment/motivation to complete low level dungeons at the minimum level so they are a challenge.
Byron Oct 21st 2010 5:32PM
Low level tanks, if played by someone who knows what they're doing, have always topped the dps meters. Well at least during Wrath, I don't recall prior to that.
I have 4 tanks, one of each class, and the the War, Bear, and Pally were all LFG leveled. On mass pulls, it was rare for the dps to ever come near me. Different story on single target bosses of, course.
Jack Spicer Oct 21st 2010 5:39PM
@jtrain
"Now granted, many are wearing BOA gear, but it isn't much different in straight dungeon blues."
I think this is a bigger culprete than you think. Lower level dungeons are designed for toons in green gear while BOA gear is the best possible blue - something no one ever had in vanilla or BC.
It would be nice if the devs could rebalance low level dungeons though. Where is the fun when your group just steam rolls the place? Especially if you only visit once or twice. How are new players ever supposed to learn group dynamics?
Lee Oct 22nd 2010 11:46AM
pre 4.01 a low level pala tank could easily expect to do 40-50% of the damage in a dungeon from the general OPness of ret aura and consecration
even more if I had a good healer and pulled larger groups
Ez Oct 21st 2010 6:50PM
Well i have to say that most people complain about Warriors tanking because they expect them to pretty much do all the killing and out DPS everyone else, and previously warriors were close to the bottom of the DPS list. That is a big power swing for a tank, but hopefully it won't be nerfed too much- we need that little extra poof!