TLaHtSI: BlizzCon paladin info round up - page 2

TLDR: Q: Why the long delay on Consecration? A: Because we wanted it to be situational instead of something you always press on cooldown.
Question: [video link] Consecration, it was basically a 12-second cooldown originally and it fit well into the ret paladin rotation. Or it could be a nice starter and continuation for AoE threat generation for prot paladin. What was your intention on taking that to a 1-minute cooldown?
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street: Basically, we wanted Consecration to be more situational where when you have those legendary streaming adds coming in. That's when you want to drop Consecration to try to trap them, when you have a large group you're trying to control.
Once it has a very short cooldown, you can more or less use it when you want. Then there's not much decision-making. The decision is, "Is Consecrate expired? If so, cast it again and cast it again." We want it to be more like, "Is now a good time to cast it, or am I going to need it again in a few seconds from now?" But at the same time, we won't balance the threat generation around having it up all of the time.
Kris Zierhut: We also made a conscious decision in the case of threat to try to reduce the constant AoE damage coming out of their single-target rotation. That was one of the other reasons of increasing the cooldown on Consecration.
Zealotry
TLDR: Q: Zealotry seems to clash a lot with of things like ret's mastery and Divine Purpose. Is there any plan to change it? A: There are still some issues. We're going to stop it from burning the 3 holy power as one fix. We might make other changes. Just because it gives you holy power when other things give you holy power doesn't necessarily means it clashes.
Question: [video link] ... the Zealotry talent. On paper it sounds good, but in practice, I feel like it kind of clashes with both our mastery as well as the Divine Purpose talent. Because if we pop Zealotry and we get Hand of Light procs, it's effectively reducing, y'know, how many Crusader Strikes we can generate. As well as while Zealotry is active, any holy power we get from Divine Purpose is kind of wasted. So, do you think that currently that design is kind of clashing and is there any intent to re-evaluate Zealotry as a talent?
Kris Zierhut: We're still looking at it. There are some problems, like you mentioned. Some people are trying to claim that Zealotry isn't a DPS increase at all. We're a little confused by that. One change that we did recently is that you can activate at the 3 holy powers required, but it doesn't burn the holy powers. So, you can start immediately with being to be able to use those 3 holy powers instead of having to wait to build up again to use it.
Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street: It's also off the [global cooldown] now.
Kris Zierhut: If it's not feeling like it's good enough or doesn't quite work right, we'll certainly make more polish changes. Like one simple change might make Divine Purpose procs generate 3 holy power while it's active -- if we needed to make some additional change, maybe that.
Ion Hazzikostas: I wouldn't necessarily say that they clash with each other. As long as Zealotry's still a good button to push and talents like Divine Purpose and stats like mastery are desirable on their own. The fact that when one is up, the value of the others is lessened isn't necessarily problematic. It's not different than, say, a combat rogue who has talents and things that increase energy generation and also an activated ability, Adrenaline Rush, that gives them massive amounts of energy. When one is in effect, the other is less valuable, but they're both very, very good in their own right.
Vengeance
TLDR: Q: There's issues with Vengeance not doing well if you have a lot of avoids. Is this intended? A: A bit. If it ends up being a problem, we'll adjust it. However, it's there to help out and not to be required.
Question: [video link] (from Anafielle at Righteous Defense) I was wondering if you were happy with the current implementation of Vengeance? Right now, the way it's working, you can run into an avoidance streak and you won't get enough stacks. It also punishes survival gearing to an extent, because when you're gearing for survival you'll have less stacks of Vengeance. I was just wondering if you're happy with the way that is.
Owen Landgren: So, gearing for survival versus threat has always been a trade-off to a certain extent. Back in the day, you had your block and expertise pieces and then you had your actual just dodge/parry gear. So, having that trade-off and having to make that decision I think is something interesting, certainly. That being said, when Vengeance does fall off, it does feel pretty crappy. But, if it gets to the point where you're just constantly avoiding everything and it's just falling off, then we'll have to re-examine it.
Ion Hazzikostas: And Vengeance is a rolling average over a period of time so that having a couple of dodges or a couple of parries in a row shouldn't seriously impact you. But that said, Vengeance isn't designed to be mandatory. You should be able to get the job done in terms of tanking without it. And it's there mainly to keep you -- to allow tanks to continue to scale with DPS in raid settings and in much higher tiers of gear where you have a fully synergized raid doing massive amounts of DPS. And in Lich King, people relied on Tricks of the Trade and Misdirect being used on cooldown to keep up with that. And we'd like to have that be more on the tank's shoulders and make them feel like they have the ability to put out the necessary threat and also do a good bit of damage at the same time.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
So long.... Oct 27th 2010 6:10PM
to mana bars and my fav Ret Pally Quote:
"Warriors need to build rage to do damage, Ret Pallies already start the fight pissed off."
Jamie Oct 27th 2010 6:33PM
If I were 10 years younger and had an unhealthy obsession with internet forums, this would be my signature!
Back in the day forums were the only way to let people who how much more important your opinion was compared to theirs! Psshh to Social Networking.
Mattimus Oct 27th 2010 6:52PM
My rage bar is blue and I start every fight pissed.
Amaxe Oct 27th 2010 10:56PM
I'm thinking of making it my sig in honor of patch 4.01
Krz Oct 28th 2010 12:38AM
I'm a Pandaren Brewmaster and I start every fight pissed.
Astalnar Oct 28th 2010 2:25AM
Add to that quote a few more words:
"Warriors need to build rage to do damage, Ret Pallies already start the fight pissed off. And it doesn't help."
Al Oct 27th 2010 6:19PM
Having to stop and hit a different button every two or three times will stop us being Whack-A-Mole?
I was hoping there would be something about the Sense Undead removal, taking that off the Class created to battle Undead seems really random and stupid.
Angus Oct 27th 2010 6:58PM
Why would there be something about that? Go to ICC as a paladin. Look at the minimap. Oh hey, tons of undead.
thebitterfig Oct 27th 2010 7:01PM
It means you'll have to look at more than cooldowns, at very least.
The old Ret basically made decisions based almost solely on what was off cooldown first, and a /castrandom macro could put out 90% of theoretical max dps - that shows how unimportant it was to get the priorities completely right.. The new Ret requires you to watch more than cooldowns and start looking at holy power and procs too. Mastery for free, 3HP attacks, Divine Purpose for cutting down on the exact number of Crusader Strikes needed per TV, and such. It isn't so open as a Rogue and their CP, but it's really a step in the right direction toward a playstyle which really makes you become a lot more aware of how your playing, and hitting TV too early or too late will become clear dps losses.
Al Oct 27th 2010 8:13PM
"Go to ICC as a paladin. Look at the minimap. Oh hey, tons of undead. "
So it only works in one raid now? Typical.
Saeadame Oct 27th 2010 6:19PM
TBQH, I think the Vengence thing is partially to keep Bear druids from being ridiculously overpowered. Druid tanks work mostly off dodge and stam, and if Vengence stacked off dodged hits too then bear druids would be getting more and more attack power, which would mean larger and larger shields from Savage Defense. It's already an issue in the beta - the longer a fight goes on, provided nothing happens to cause the bear tank's stacks of Vengence to drop off, the less and less damage the bear takes because of Savage Defense.
Anafielle Oct 27th 2010 6:32PM
Actually the vengeance question was asked by me, not Rhidach. :)
He's the author of the blog Righteous Defense, http://www.rhida.ch ... I'm just the cotank who managed to steal author privileges, posts when he's away, and very occasionally throws a rant up there. I mainly said "Anafielle from Righteous Defense" just for the hell of it. :)
I am so, so glad that they have addressed the Holy Power problem with the Divine Plea change. It is a change that was suggested a lot on the Maintankadin forums and I think it will go a long way towards fixing the "backloaded threat" problem - since, when this goes live, we can generate our resource before a pull to start off with a bang, instead of waiting 6 GCDs to smack our high-threat move... as well as an emergency threat button in the middle of a fight. Love it.
I'm glad they also recognize that Grand Crusader is currently a worthless talent (from the perspective of a single target raid boss spec). All it will take is a numbers pass to fix this, so I'm sure it will be fixed soon, but it was good to hear it.
Tanks are in a great place. I'm glad they are responding to our relatively minor problems. But I do feel the need to bitch a bit about their answer to my question - the one regarding Vengeance. (although *cough* too nervous to push them about it right then .... those lights are bright, ok?!)
I understand what they were trying to do with it, but right now, Vengeance is really not working the way they want it to. Vengeance was meant, in part, to SOLVE the problem of tanks taking off pants to tank low level instances. It's really made the problem worse, because Vengeance depends on you taking damage. In those lower level raids, you avoid & mitigate way too much of the damage to stack Vengeance. Honestly, tanking lower level raids is almost more difficult. I'm pretty glad I have a strength tank set, because there's no way I'd want to go back and (for example) farm togc for mounts in my icc gear. Just no way. So if Vengeance was meant to solve that problem, it has failed miserably.
That is what I meant by "punishes survival gearing." It punishes survival gearing *from the viewpoint of stacking up vengeance*, because you stack Vengeance WAY more effectively in LESS tank gear. And that is the opposite of the intent of the change. Instead of causing us to just use our tank gear, the Vengeance mechanic pushes the tank - even more than before - into wearing no gear, or their epeen strength gear, or whatever.
But I guess they're happy with it. If they're happy with it in progression raids, that's fine I guess, I haven't seen too much of a problem (except that avoidance streaks can really screw your threat, but it's never been a threat-breaking mechanic for me, just annoying). But it's totally failing to do one of the things they wanted it to do.
/shrug I didn't want to bitch about it, so I let the next questioner go ahead without pushing them.
Anafielle Oct 27th 2010 6:34PM
Wow, long comment is hella long. Sorry, guys.
Rob Oct 27th 2010 6:57PM
I kinda wish druids had only these problems. Instead we're rage starved and get maybe one swipe in before the DPS starts AOEing down packs. Places like ICC before sindy are hell with only feral druids, there is no way we can generate enough AOE threat to hold 10-20 mobs, with one swipe every 8 seconds (or is it 6?). Yeah, people need to single target, but with these situations fairly common in todays raids, it's hell to be a bear tank right now.
thebitterfig Oct 27th 2010 7:07PM
Bear AoE will get better with the new AoE-bleed attack they're going to get, and while it might be frustrating now, I expect things at 85 won't be as bleak.
Of course, I say this as a warrior, and we've always been a little behind the curve on AoE threat, and are probably in a better position than ever between Blood and Thunder, Thunderstruck, and the fact that Glyphed cleave and sunder don't come at the expense of otherwise valuable glyphs.
Gregg Reece Oct 28th 2010 10:15AM
Craaaaaaaap. I made a quick note of "oh! be sure to link this to Righteous Defense when finishing up" while doing the transcript, because I love supporting paladin bloggers. The problem is that you were one of the first ones I actually transcribed and I forgot who it was that asked the question and just presumed when going back and adding all of the formatting.
It's fixed now, but I'm really sorry for the screw up.
I agree with you on the subject of Vengeance, btw. As for missing the point of your question, there were a couple times where I'm not sure they heard enough of the question or didn't get what the person was actually trying to ask. The same thing happens on the forums sometimes when GC responds to someone.
Unfortunately, a lot of these mechanics are still fairly new and I have a feeling that we're going to see some revamps on how they work in 4.1 or sooner.
Anafielle Oct 27th 2010 7:20PM
Yuck, that sounds bad for bear tanks. Hope you guys get a fix soon.
I fully admit that Blizz is really fixing all the prot pally problems - which are, like I said, minor. But I wouldn't be a pally if I didn't QQ about how tight my diamond shoes were and how heavy my gold plated, money filled wallet was, would I? :D
Revrant Oct 27th 2010 8:33PM
"The original question actually came down to QQ about holy damage not being resistable in PvP. The devs actually said at the end that if you're dying in PvP due to a lack of holy power resistance that you've got other issues."
After needing twelve people to take down a Ret Pally in PvP and a Holy Pally never dying in spite of 12 people(the majority of our AB team) thrashing her and her just slicing through us with Holy spells, the entire game became diverting her so we could actually capture points...I just find this arrogant.
Sorry to offend the Paladins and editor, but it's exceedingly arrogant, even, to not include it and just dismiss it as QQ, it shows Paladins will continue to be exceedingly overpowered in Cata and makes me wonder if PvP will continue to be nonviable whenever a Pally in Tier 10 shows up.
This may seem like a bunch of QQ to Pally-only players, but having been around since Vanilla, and seeing them be balanced quite well in BC, I think this resource system needs to be amped up considerably to return them to a balanced place, this roflstomping of all other classes and their ability to utterly shift a BG just by appearing is really disappointing.
You can call it QQ and dismiss it with a snide remark, but it's still the elephant in the room regarding balance issues, and I'm sad to see it persist into Cata.
Telwar Oct 27th 2010 8:57PM
Really? Twelve people to kill a ret pally? They can hardly heal themselves any more without sacrificing their damage. The only way I can see that this isn't hyperbole is to assume that they were in full Wrathful and your 12 were in heroic blues or something, or 9 of them were AFKing.
I can see the Holy QQ, though a good chunk of it is Protector of the Innocent and self-healing. I suspect it'll be much less of an issue at 85, when they can go OOM much more easily.
Chris M Oct 28th 2010 12:18AM
I don't PVP (ever), and I play strictly Prot PVE; but isn't that the case with all the healer classes? Resto druids were/are(?) notoriously hard to kill, and a decent Discipline priest was always a force to be reckoned with. Holy paladins have the armour bonus and the massive heals to survive, much like a resto druid's ability to gain HP from hots while stunned/CC'd.
Isn't the solution to the 'healer problem' to apply MS and focus fire? Add your own healer to taste and shake well? I imagine if you split your DPS to assaulting the other players and not your healer, their team will indeed rip you to shreds.
The adage is old, but viable. 'Why don't the raid bosses go after the guys in the back wearing dresses with glowing hands?'