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10-29-2010 @ 1:20PM
Bears have always used stam as their only defense against magic based attacks. Every other class has more than just their flavor of shield wall to defend against magic. Bears just got taken down many pegs.
10-29-2010 @ 1:28PM
Yeah, but "bear"wall only having a 2 minute CD is a significent buff as well I think- it makes it so that tanks will be much more willing to use it, which will really help conserve healer mana.
10-29-2010 @ 1:34PM
Well, I'm sure if that's still the case with all the armor changes they've made they will change something else to equalize bear tanks with the others.Savage defense is probably still a little overpowered when facing melee bosses, so it could just be that yes, bear tanks will be niche tanks.
10-29-2010 @ 1:52PM
Perhaps I'm missing something, but aren't Paladins in the same boat and, thus, 50% of the tanking classes?
10-29-2010 @ 1:57PM
You mean like?http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=78736/perseverance
10-29-2010 @ 2:06PM
"...in the beta raid tests, druids were easy to keep alive and the other tanks were dying in two hits. That wasn't the design we were going for, so we brought the druid down to the other tank levels" even though they have fewer ways to mitigate damage as other tanks do - i'm looking at you block and anti-magic bubbles. so, will bears now be carrying shields on their faces? blizz wants to make all tanks more similar so they can make boss fights less dependent on what type of tanks my be facing them - alright, that sounds fine. but tanks aren't all the same, and a larger heath pool has been what's made bear tanks viable since they lack abilities the other three classes have. yes, si is now on a two-minute cd, but so is every other similar ability for other tanks. this 'buff' looks to me more like bringing abilities in line. i don't feel it counters the health nerf.
10-29-2010 @ 3:08PM
Paladins have several defenses against magic in the form of cooldowns. Divine Shield, resistences aura, LOH, word of glory, ardent defender, and sanctuary are all ways a pally could mitigate the damage from magic damage.
10-29-2010 @ 2:11PM
Misposted this: Paladins have several defenses against magic in the form of cooldowns. Divine Shield, resistences aura, LOH, word of glory, ardent defender, and sanctuary are all ways a pally could mitigate the damage from magic damage.
10-29-2010 @ 2:32PM
@sterb that is a second tier restoration talent btw...
10-29-2010 @ 2:35PM
@Sterb, that talent is in the second tree of the Resto tier. As such, bear druids will not be able to put a single point in it until 81. We don't get to fill it out until 83. I know these changes don't happen until 4.0.3a, which is the Cataclysm patch but still.... while levelling up in dungeons, bears are going to be squishier to magical attacks.So now that Survival Instincts is basically Shield Wall, where's our Last Stand? Oh. We don't get one of those. Hrm.I understand that this change is supposed to make damage more equal across all tanking classes so bears are not the de facto tanking class. I don't want that. No one wants that. But I can't help but feel like this is instead going to make bears dead last in tanking like we were all through Wrath, whether it was justified or not. Whenever I'd queue up for a dungeon I always got "Oh wow, a bear!" or some surprised comment to that effect.I just feel like bears are getting the short end of the stick, again. I have faith and hope that Blizzard will be able to solve this but well. We'll see.
10-29-2010 @ 2:54PM
I'm trying to figure out what defense warriors have except stam against magic. Spell Reflection works on some trash mobs, but not all, and doesn't work on any bosses. So it's not a defense against magic damage while tanking (in fact, I use it more to generate aggro by getting spell caster trash mobs to damage themselves).Barkskin ( http://www.wowhead.com/spell=22812 ) reduces all damage taken by 20%. Shield Block doesn't do anything against magic damage. So you're AHEAD of warriors against magic damage, not behind them.
10-29-2010 @ 3:21PM
Rossi has a point with barkskin.In regards to spell reflect not working on bosses, I havent raid tanked with warrior since BC. Is that a change new to wrath or Cata? It used to work in BC. It was fantastic on Aran and BT, and several more.
10-29-2010 @ 3:51PM
Yeah, spell reflect certainly isn't a barkskin or anti-magic shell. They could easily slap a talent addition onto that to allow for magic dmg reduction but it's not a huge worry as far as I've seen. No like, only warriors getting crushed by magic attacks.Although magic attacks not working on any bosses isn't strictly true. It's extremely situational but it seemed pretty handy on Mimiron flying head phase. But yeah for straight out dragon breath, true.
@Snuzzle the last effect was added to frenzied regeneration, which is on top of the healing effect. And you can still glyph it to increase healing done to you but it removes the healing effect.
10-29-2010 @ 3:56PM
That should be "the last stand effect"
10-29-2010 @ 4:02PM
Basically throughout wrath, boss spell effects that matter can't be Spell Reflected. Jaraxxus's Fel Fireball, Keleseth's Shadow Lance, and the Deathwhisper's Frostbolt are all unreflectable, and it wouldn't be able to do anything against a dragon's Breath either, even if it was. Oddly, Lady Deathwhisper's Shadowbolt can be, but that's just something she tosses out in phase one randomly, so maybe you'll get a reflect if you keep SR on cooldown, but fairly unlikely.
10-29-2010 @ 4:33PM
@Mathew Rossi - I played a Bear all through WotLK and took pride in my health pool as well as the skill it took to generate copious amounts of threat. I like being different from a warrior (read plate tank), sure I roll for weapons with hunters, cats, and the odd arms warrior, while the tank had no competition for his sheild seeing as how I was the other tank. Warriors had much more utility than bears for a long time, now bears have what I call 'warrior tools' with skulls symbols, which is nice.The point is, the alure for me to log onto my bear is gone, no more 'o.o HOLY COW, see that bears health?? who is he?' I'm going to miss that. It sucks when all my major achivements are on the one toon that I cringe to play now, I work so hard for all the raid mounts, I practice maximizing the potential of my bear to solo alot of old game content and hone my skills all to find out after two years of shape-shifting fun to finally shift into a warrior paradigm... NO THANKS!!! I'm a druidic 'bear' more than I am a 'tank'. This homogenization is GARBAGE. I've downed the LK before and after patch 4.0 the changes are nice and all but what they aren't is bear-like. I can't throw a Brez while the other tank taunt juggles my target because that utility has been neutured, I can't roll with thorns Unless I want to die or I can convince a fellow druid to make a focus macro to apply it. To you mathew rossi... when is my cat going to be able to dual weild? I'm guessing 4.1 at this rate but any help concerning the matter would be nice. I might just roll 'need' one handers to stockpile for when the change is implemented.I apologize for anything seems too agressive, I'm really upset I ditched my warrior because of its play style after level 70, the druid was more 'fluid' in my personal experience. And now that play style is literally forced upon me... forced, with out cause... lower the dodge 4% i dont care, lower the armor 75% from 360% or whatever it's at, but do not take my bear form identifying health pool please!!!!
10-29-2010 @ 4:43PM
@Eros and @Rossi, thank you. I haven't tanked much at all since 4.0 (and I'm sure most tanks understand why), and I guess it shows.If it's indeed true that the Last Stand effect was baked into Frenzied Regen, well that's certainly nice since most bears pushed them together anyway, but it's also a bit annoying since that's essentially one less cooldown. Honestly, I'd prefer them to be separated again so that we can choose whether or not to push them together. But I guess we can call that a wash.As for the Spell Reflect vs Barkskin thing, I guess you can just call it tanking envy. I sure as heck miss Spell Reflect when there's one specific spell I want to avoid (ie, Spell Flinger's Shadow Blast) but Barkskin is nice for when I want to take the edge off of constant damage. It does seem a little unbalanced, now, because Barkskin used to be like a mini Shield Wall, but now we have full-on Shield Wall in addition to the mini. Honestly, I'd rather have seen Barkskin changed into full-blown Shield Wall (in the form of a deep feral talent to increase the damage reduction to 50%, and increase the cooldown to 2 minutes), Surv Instincts left alone, and Frenzied Regen left alone. Right now if their goal is relative cooldown equality, they're going about it in a weird way.But that's just one bear's opinion.
10-29-2010 @ 4:51PM
@Matthew RossiI may be mistaken, but don't you get a flat 10% reduction to ALL damage just from being in Defensive Stance?This isn't supposed to be confrontational as I don't think Bears OR Warriors have it very good when it comes to magic mitigation, but still, 10% reduction to all magic damage all of the time seems better than 20% reduction 12% of the time.
10-29-2010 @ 5:13PM
@kworry Bears have Natural Reaction, which is slightly better than Defensive Stancehttp://www.wowhead.com/spell=57880
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