Ghostcrawler shares DPS spec design philosophy for Cataclysm

As we've come to expect him to, Ghostcrawler responds with a fairly in-depth answer. He covers the difficulty of balancing two or more specs in a class that fulfill the same role and how this experience in Wrath of the Lich King helped guide Blizzard in its systems overhaul for Cataclysm.
I'm going to quote the entire reply in full because it's got implications for the game well beyond Wrath.
When there are multiple specs that fill the same role, as is the case for Fire vs. Frost mage or Arms vs. Fury warrior, we have found that some players will play their favored spec because they like the theme or mechanics, as long as the damage difference isn't too significant. Sadly, those players also seem to be in the minority. Many others will respec, regem, etc. for even a slight *theoretical* (very important word there) gain in dps.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
There are two very interesting aspects to this answer from my perspective. The first is the idea that player behavior creates feedback that affects design during as well as after an expansion. Not only were these four specs affected by player behavior (i.e., it was player choice that caused the development team to fear going too high with these specs because it had witnessed players' feeling "forced" to switch out of BM to survival when that spec was buffed), but the design of Cataclysm going forward is directly addressing this tendency by giving the developers more knobs to turn, so to speak.
Secondly, the idea that players are willing to completely relearn a class or spec between expansions with much greater tolerance than they are during an expansion has implications for how and when designers can adjust a class or spec that isn't matching up. In fact, this reluctance creates a situation in which, as a designer, you have to aim for gradual increases until you're given the freedom of redesign offered by an expansion patch.
What makes Cataclysm so interesting there is that it is an expansion designed to give more tools for such small corrections during its own life cycle, in effect taking the lessons of The Burning Crusade and Wrath and incorporating them into the systems of the game itself. Since we know small corrections will have to be made and that very often those small corrections will have unforeseen consequences (like making one spec overtake another), one of the goals of Cataclysm's design becomes incorporating more hooks for the design to be adjusted around, to prevent players from feeling forced to switch specs to be competitive.
The idea of designing the game to alleviate that aspect, to make it less likely that players will be frustrated by waking up and being forced to relearn their class, is definitely a pretty large shift for the game. If it works, it could create a World of Warcraft unlike anything we've ever seen in the six years of its history -- one that has learned from itself.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm will destroy Azeroth as we know it; nothing will be the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion (available Dec. 7, 2010), from brand new races to revamped quests and zones. Visit our Cataclysm news category for the most recent posts having to do with the Cataclysm expansion.Filed under: Hunter, Mage, Rogue, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
ToxicPopsicle Nov 2nd 2010 6:05PM
Give frost something to reduce the CD of Deep Freeze for PvE and it'll be competitive. Even if it is just a proc.
Eddy Nov 2nd 2010 6:14PM
I'm aware that this applies to the original forum thread instead of the WowInsider thread, however, "(Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking (class) damage, everything would have turned out fine.)"
razion Nov 2nd 2010 6:21PM
On the subject of Deep Freeze--I've always thought it has worked very weirdly. I mean, it does two very different things depending if the target is an unstunable boss, or a stunable player/monster. The ability changes when you use it, which isn't very reliable (as opposed to the normal: I press this button, this happens).
I really think they need to change up Deep Freeze with a glyph option (people shouldn't have to spend more excess talent-points to make a core ability 'work' in my opinion).
Deep freeze at base does a little damage, with a brief stun. One glyph gives it damage, but takes away stun. One glyph takes away damage, but gives longer stun.
rlh_115 Nov 2nd 2010 6:13PM
Why is he grouping fire and frost?
sure they're both elemental but frost has been the chosen PvP spec and fire has been up there with arcane for raiding but now fire seems to have been nerfed to frost levels
Sunaseni Nov 2nd 2010 6:17PM
I don't know what game you are playing, but it sure ain't World of Warcraft.
Rufio Nov 2nd 2010 6:22PM
^ Ouch!
rlh_115 Nov 2nd 2010 6:26PM
Maybe you didn't know but they lowered the mastery bonuses more for fire than the others and lowered the base damage of fire spells more than the other 2
the fire specialization is actually 10% not the tool tip 25% or the 15% that arcane and frost get
Sunaseni Nov 2nd 2010 6:36PM
Yes, I know Fire was nerfed more than Arcane and Frost, but that was because Fire was, and still is, ridiculous. Fire and Arcane are both in good spots, with either being higher depending on the player, and while Frost is competitive in the general sense, our stats right now favor Fire and Arcane. (Frost neither likes Haste since it has a ton of instant spells, and crit past 33.3% is weaker than Mastery, which happens to not be on our gear.)
Wildstaff Nov 2nd 2010 6:44PM
Maybe you didn't know but the bonus is going back to the original 25% after 4.0.3 is live. The berg caused fire magi at 85 to do horrid DPS.
Felix_NZ Nov 2nd 2010 6:54PM
Fire can do DPS as high or higher than Arcane, but it depends entirely on if you get some hot streak procs in any given fight
benbettis Nov 2nd 2010 6:14PM
I'm pleased to hear GC's comments on this. My hunter (an alt admittedly) never felt right to me as anything but BM. I just like the idea. I control these sweet beasts that do damage for me. Lots of people like the theme behind frost, or sub. Having to play a spec you dislike detracts a lot from the RP element of the game, which is huge for some players.
Here's hoping they succeed in this, so far they seem to be.
Eternauta Nov 2nd 2010 6:56PM
^ This
Aris Nov 2nd 2010 7:21PM
Yar! I leveled my mage Frost and prefer to play that way but had to spec him Arcane to get invited to any sort of raid (and also for VoA where that one boss nobody ever did and his adds all seem to be immune to Frost =) ). I knew DPS was sub-par but I didn't care because it was more fun to me to play that way and it wasn't detrimental to the raid or group. True I was never top of the meters but not bottom either so I accepted it when I was allowed to stay in group as Frost, and switched to Arcane when I had to.
Since the patch dropped, I like Frost even more and often am near or at the top. My gear isn't top of the line or anything, but mostly 264 (with some 245) crafted/badge gear and 232 weapons. I can peak over 10k some fights with a nice string of procs. And even if I "waste" Deep Freeze on a stunnable target, I can pound him with 3-4 Ice Lances critting over 10k (often over 12k) each. I still think it's the lowest DPS of the three specs, but it is significantly better and much closer to the other two than it used to be.
MusedMoose Nov 2nd 2010 7:56PM
I completely agree. I'm a roleplayer at heart, so when I decide what spec my character is going to be, I tend to want to stick with it through thick and thin. BM is, to me, the spec that feels like a true hunter, so I've rarely wanted to play anything else. (Going BM/Surv with my future hunter in Cata, 'cause that's just the kind of guy he is, but BM will be first.)
I have to say, though, I really appreciate how GC not only takes the time to respond to peoples' thoughts, but he also explains Blizzard's perspective and line of thought on the issues, and does it in more than just a few sentences. ^_^
Kellerune Nov 2nd 2010 8:32PM
Most of you guys feel like BM hunters are the way to go? I always thought of my hunter as a Marksman. As soon as I hit 10 back in vanilla, I looked over the trees and as soon as I saw Aimed Shot, I knew what I wanted to be. Then again, I played DnD and the ranger class always had me intrigued. If only they implemented a melee hunter spec... then things would get way more exciting!
The mastery system I think will work wonderfully throughout Cataclysm's life cycle. The hunter bonuses themselves have seen changes across the board, so the fine tuning of them will be so much easier than looking at abilities.
Either way, it would be interesting to see a poll as to what each person looks at their character as, see what most people think the archetype is for a certain class.
Noyou Nov 2nd 2010 8:37PM
I can see some specs more important than others as far as RP goes. Frost/Fire/Arcane mages are totally different flavor wise. As are Frost/Unholy/Blood DK's. (those are just a couple examples) I for one don't mind losing some DPS for the survivability from say the frost mage or BM hunter or blood DK. I can also see how one could come accustom to those specs since you are with them for 80+ levels. It happened to my frost mage. Even though arcane missiles is my favorite spell I just got so used to frost I can't shake it. One of my problems is that I try to use too many buttons on the other specs instead of going with a set rotation (yes I know that's bad). I still haven't had the time to redo my offspecs for my mage or hunter but am looking forward to trying fire and BM out. Glad to see they are making efforts to boost DPS but like what I said with survivability it's almost like cheating :)
peon47 Nov 2nd 2010 9:50PM
This is how I feel. My hunter is BM and my mage is Frost. Not because of RP reasons, but because those are the specs I like to play.
I think about re-speccing my mage to arcane in the same way I think about re-rolling as a shadow priest or warlock. Sorry, but I'm a FrostMage, not a mage who happens to be Frost-specced.
Skarn Nov 2nd 2010 9:56PM
Kellerune, I've always felt more "right" being a Marksman hunter too. I dispense death from afar. I survey the battlefield, picking the right targets and crushing them before they even know what hit them. I see it all and am able to help my allies, direct our forces and crush my enemies.
Oh, I absolutely love my pet, I've kept the same cat since I first found him in Winterspring at level 58 way way way back in December of '04. I completely understand why many hunters prefer the BM style, but that's just not me. I'm the main force here, my pet is my cherished helper.
Chris Nov 2nd 2010 11:42PM
I agree, although I'm really enjoying survival in 4.0.1 (and focus in general). BM is still the symbolic spec for hunters: having the exotic pets who can have incredible raid buffs is what its all about. I'm not seeing the numbers for BM right now, but I really really hope that we have a new expansion where BM stands up as it did in its BC glory days.
benbettis Nov 3rd 2010 12:02AM
Skarn, I like that view :)
Personally, I'm BM and MM right now, rolling as MM for most fights. The SV rotation is extremely focus starved and clunky at the moment, though its aoe brings happy numbers. BM, in it's own right, suffers on movement fights or switches, where it can be difficult to time your kill commands with pet movement. :( I'm really enjoying the MM rotation though.
...Thing is, I just can't seem to part with my Devilsaur, Piggy. :D