Ghostcrawler shares DPS spec design philosophy for Cataclysm

As we've come to expect him to, Ghostcrawler responds with a fairly in-depth answer. He covers the difficulty of balancing two or more specs in a class that fulfill the same role and how this experience in Wrath of the Lich King helped guide Blizzard in its systems overhaul for Cataclysm.
I'm going to quote the entire reply in full because it's got implications for the game well beyond Wrath.
Ghostcrawler - Re: Why weren't they fixed?When there are multiple specs that fill the same role, as is the case for Fire vs. Frost mage or Arms vs. Fury warrior, we have found that some players will play their favored spec because they like the theme or mechanics, as long as the damage difference isn't too significant. Sadly, those players also seem to be in the minority. Many others will respec, regem, etc. for even a slight *theoretical* (very important word there) gain in dps.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
There are two very interesting aspects to this answer from my perspective. The first is the idea that player behavior creates feedback that affects design during as well as after an expansion. Not only were these four specs affected by player behavior (i.e., it was player choice that caused the development team to fear going too high with these specs because it had witnessed players' feeling "forced" to switch out of BM to survival when that spec was buffed), but the design of Cataclysm going forward is directly addressing this tendency by giving the developers more knobs to turn, so to speak.
Secondly, the idea that players are willing to completely relearn a class or spec between expansions with much greater tolerance than they are during an expansion has implications for how and when designers can adjust a class or spec that isn't matching up. In fact, this reluctance creates a situation in which, as a designer, you have to aim for gradual increases until you're given the freedom of redesign offered by an expansion patch.
What makes Cataclysm so interesting there is that it is an expansion designed to give more tools for such small corrections during its own life cycle, in effect taking the lessons of The Burning Crusade and Wrath and incorporating them into the systems of the game itself. Since we know small corrections will have to be made and that very often those small corrections will have unforeseen consequences (like making one spec overtake another), one of the goals of Cataclysm's design becomes incorporating more hooks for the design to be adjusted around, to prevent players from feeling forced to switch specs to be competitive.
The idea of designing the game to alleviate that aspect, to make it less likely that players will be frustrated by waking up and being forced to relearn their class, is definitely a pretty large shift for the game. If it works, it could create a World of Warcraft unlike anything we've ever seen in the six years of its history -- one that has learned from itself.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm will destroy Azeroth as we know it; nothing will be the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion (available Dec. 7, 2010), from brand new races to revamped quests and zones. Visit our Cataclysm news category for the most recent posts having to do with the Cataclysm expansion.Filed under: Hunter, Mage, Rogue, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Rakah Nov 3rd 2010 4:08AM
i shall ever love sub
Krytture Nov 3rd 2010 10:25AM
@peon47 I agree, I am a Beast Master Hunter, not a hunter with multiple personalities. Even my Off-spec is primarily BM, it just allows me to run faster and CC a little more for farming.
xenite46383 Nov 2nd 2010 6:25PM
What Blizzard fails to understand is that players tend to find a dps niche and stick to it. What I mean by that is every expansion a certain spec/build becomes the gold standard for the majority of players, it's the highest dps and it performs the highest for that class.
Blizzard has had the attitude that all specs do not need to perform equally, and this is the problem. Especially in most raiding guilds where you are expected to spec the most optimal way, hell many guilds will not take you if they think you have enchanted or gemed wrong.
When I play my alt hunter I constantly caught crap about being BM spec'ed and how I should switch to the far superior dps spec of marksman and that was only in heroics.
They give warriors single minded fury, tell us that if it's not comparable with titans grip that's ok with them and send us on our way. If TG turns out to be best dps in Cataclysm guess what 95% of all raid warriors will be using, yup TG.
If you want to see progression content in this game you are forced into following a certain spec/rotation/gear set. That is Blizzards failing, not the players.
MikeLive Nov 2nd 2010 6:50PM
Except they've said, repeatedly, in fact a quote on this very page explains it, that it's very very hard to hit the equal DPS across the board goal. Yes players will find the highest DPS and stick with it. But that's not Blizzard's fault, they're trying their hardest so that players that don't want to stick entirely with the niche aren't completely punished. As said by GC, the whole new talent system is based around this idea.
Cheeselandman Nov 2nd 2010 6:53PM
but what ghostcrawler is saying, is that even if all dps specs were the same, if they all pulled the same amount of dps- people would still switch if one APPEARED to pull more dps. There is no way to "perfectly attune" all classes to all do the same dps. Even if WoW had no pvp, some classes will do more damage on some fights than others. Some play styles are more suited to certain specs, than others. Blizzard has the impossible job of making sure everyone does the exact same dps, while making every single class/spec combination play differently.
Since patch 4.0.1, I've seen a marked improvement in similarities between specs. Frost, Fire, and Arcane mages all pull reasonable amounts of dps. Subtly rogues also are on par with combat and assassination. Arms still pulls less than fury, but not too much less.
All hunter classes now pull similar dps. You know this. Blizzard, though they are not always perfect, and can never be perfect, has vastly reduced the gap you feel between specs of certain classes.
Stilhelm Nov 2nd 2010 6:54PM
If your guild will not take you raiding because someone thinks you're gemmed or enchanted wrong, instead of based on your *actual* performance, then you need to find a new guild.
If on the other hand, you wanted to raid in a progression-oriented guild in late WotLK (pre 4.0) as a sub rogue or arms warrior, then you should expect some resistance, since your actual performance will be significantly below what it could be, and even more importantly, significantly below a more capable class/spec.
If a spec is as low as pre-4.0 frost, sub, arms, etc, then you have to consider that while you may be playing the way *you* want to play, you still have to consider the effect it has on the other 9/24 people in your raid. It really is unfair to enforce your choice of spec on the rest of the raid if it increases the burden on everyone else.
I agree with GC that it is unfortunate that there is a pervasive mindset that there is only one right way concerning gems, enchants, spec, etc. I raided on my rogue as assassination with agility gems and mongoose before it was cool again, and caught some flak for it before raids would start. When I was pushing (or beating) better-geared rogues for damage done on bosses, they shut up about it.
Carson Nov 2nd 2010 7:44PM
"Blizzard has had the attitude that all specs do not need to perform equally, and this is the problem."
No, they do not. Read the article. Ghostcrawler frankly admits that all specs do not perform equally, but states that this was NOT Blizzard's intention: "We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit." i.e., they WANT the specs to perform equally, and for players to play the spec they enjoy, and not feel forced to respec "because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree". They just didn't always achieve their goal because, well, it's a difficult goal.
Artificial Nov 2nd 2010 8:43PM
...and if you'd actually read the article, you'd see that GC agrees with pretty much everything you said, and the only thing wrong with what you said is your persistent false statements about Blizzard believing the opposite. Blizzard's attitude is the exact opposite of what you said it is, and not only do they agree that it's their failure, not the players, when they see those results that they don't want to see, but they're built a whole bunch of ways into the system now to try hard to make sure they don't fail this time around, by making it easier to do precisely what you say they should but don't want to. Seems kind of bizarre to insist they don't want to do it when they're putting this much work into making it possible to do.
Amrytale Nov 2nd 2010 6:28PM
In essence, what he is saying is that "bring the player, not the class" is a workable philosohpy only if every class is, ceteris paribus, equal in performance at a given role. There will always be specs that, when the math is calculated, give a theoretical benefit (in DPS, HPS, TPS, effective health, or whatever), and the "best" guilds/arena teams/whatever will be gravitating towards these. Players that play outside these norms will often be passed over and never given a chance to prove their ability or their spec's viability because few people are willing to take chances with something unconventional. Therefore, players will switch to something that maximizes their chance of getting in a raid or BG or whatever. It's an unavoidable consequence of a social game.
There are two answers: homogenize classes more so that each class can perform similar to all others in a given role when given players of equal skill, or give each tree a defined role, e.g., Arms is a PVP spec, Fury is DPS, and Prot tanking, for every class. That way, only a certain amount of PVP trees have to be balanced against each other. Only a certain amount of DPS trees have to be balanced for PVE play, and only a certain amount of tanking trees have to be balanced. If the system is designed such that a PVP spec playing in PVE or a tanking spec playing in PVP is, by design, not meant to work at optimal capacity, then the fault of playing an "underpowered" class lies with poor player choice, rather than game design.
Finnicks Nov 2nd 2010 7:19PM
That would be met by a massive backlash. Blizzard got enough flak by permanently making Blood the tanking tree for DKs. Lots of Frost tanks were pissed, and lots of Blood DPS were pissed.
If Blizzard woke up tomorrow and said, "Hey gais, we've decided to make Affliction the levelling spec, Demonology the PvP spec, and Destruction the PvE spec, to make our job balancing easier. Hay u Destro PvPers, sorry but you are now screwed. Ohai, Demonology levellers, you're going to be dying a lot. BTW, PvP afflicters, you're going to start getting your asses handed to you. Lrn ur new spex."
The backlash would be incredibly intense. I know I would be furious if Blizzard decided to implement this kind of plan and my Destro tree suddenly became the "PvP tree". I raid as Destruction. I -don't PvP at all as damage-. I -only- heal in PvP on my druid. I would be extremely pissed (possibly enough to stop playing my warlock entirely, possibly enough to quit playing period) if my Destruction were suddenly no longer PvE viable because Blizzard wanted to make their job of balancing things "easier".
Your choice of tree should be mostly about flavor (especially for the pure DPS classes).
Carson Nov 2nd 2010 7:49PM
Not to mention that back in the day, it WAS pretty much accepted that certain specs were PvP specs and others were PvE specs. Frost mages, subtlety rogues (or 21/8/22 rogues), discipline priests - these were PvP specs, and you were not expected to try to PvE with them.
Mind you, this was also the days when all paladins, priests, druids and shamans were expected to be healers, all of their DPS specs were considered only suitable for levelling, and their tank specs just unsuitable, period. None would never be accepted in serious PvE.
This was a bad thing. Blizzard moved away from it. They don't want to go back to it.
N-train Nov 2nd 2010 7:52PM
If you ask me, neither of these options are entirely necessary or practical. People are already complaining about increased homogenization (and for good and bad reasons), and I think that balancing only needs to go so far as to keep all specs *mostly* equal. While yes, competitive and "hardcore" guilds are still going to only accept those with the latest EJ-approved spec, that doesn't necessarily mean the other two specs aren't viable raid or BG-wise.
My guild and raids are certainly not hardcore, but I haven't ever passed over someone because they weren't using the EJ-approved spec of the month. If they keep up with the group and know their stuff they're in, and I like to think I'm not the only raid leader that thinks this way. I may be in the minority I like to think that people can still raid and get in BGs while using a non-optimal spec.
Bring the player, not the class, works so long as the group can still accomplish what they want with the people they want. If you want to be getting server first LK HMs, then you'll only be taking the min/maxers. If you just want to casually work your way through, then I don't think you'll really care if your hunter is BM or your warrior is arms.
As for giving each spec a defined role, that occurs a lot already, and I think Blizz and the majority of the playerbase agree that spec choice should, ideally, rely on what spec you like, not what is only built for PvP. And I think GC is conceding here that Blizz is willing to do what it takes from a theorycrafting and dev level to make it so that the spec you choose is viable because of your talent choices and not because some of the numbers just don't add to be high enough.
lilywillylover Nov 2nd 2010 8:35PM
I have no idea why your comment got upvoted when your suggestion is just so stupid.
I don't want my chosen tree to be just "PvP" or "PvE" or "Leveling". Just NO.
lilywillylover Nov 2nd 2010 8:40PM
How the hell did your comment get upvoted? Your suggestion is so stupid.
It was a bad idea in Vanilla and it's a bad idea now that you're suggesting it.
I play a Druid, I play Balance. I don't want to be a bear just for raids. I don't want to be a healer just for PvP. I want to able to pick my preferred style and use it in ANY aspect of the game.
Artificial Nov 2nd 2010 8:52PM
"There will always be specs that, when the math is calculated, give a theoretical benefit (in DPS, HPS, TPS, effective health, or whatever), and the "best" guilds/arena teams/whatever will be gravitating towards these. Players that play outside these norms will often be passed over... It's an unavoidable consequence of a social game."
This is not even remotely close to true. If the specs are reasonably well balanced, the theoretical benefit will (a) be so small as it won't make much difference, and (b) be argued about because which spec has the top spot will be different depending on assumptions of the modeler, not to mention things like gear, that people won't even agree as to which one actually is top. The community won't ostracize a spec if they can't even agree as to which spec needs to be ostracized, and this would be precisely the case if the specs are well balanced. It's true that, when all's said and done, one spec does have some minor advantage, but if the balance is close enough, it's beyond the power of anyone to determine with certainty which one that is, and if the differences are that small, no one will care anyhow.
Amrytale Nov 2nd 2010 8:53PM
Lily, I think you misunderstand. I didn't suggest that as a solution. I said if you approach the "there will always be a best/preferred spec" issue as a problem, then your solutions are two unpalatable choices (homogenization or standardization). A best or preferred spec is a natural consequence of a social game where people must make decisions based on theory.
splodesondeath Nov 2nd 2010 6:33PM
GC, you have made me see the light.
No more shall I be governed by you, numbers!
Zan Nov 2nd 2010 6:34PM
If I were a game developer in another company I would be paying close attention to lessons learned and this style of design. World of Warcraft has managed to be the clear uncontested number one leader in the MMO industry since 2004 and has made enough money to buy a small country. They have spent a lot of resources in game balance and design.
Rude Hero Nov 2nd 2010 6:41PM
I liked the comments GC made in this post, but he seemed to ignore the obvious a little bit.
Beast Mastery, Frost, Arms and Subtlety suffered in PvE because they were already good in PvP. Sans PvP worries, it isn't hard to tweak dps numbers- all you have to change is a few coefficients.
Artificial Nov 2nd 2010 8:57PM
"...it isn't hard to tweak dps numbers- all you have to change is a few coefficients."
Yuh huh. You just kinda skimmed the article without actually reading it, didn't you?