Ghostcrawler shares DPS spec design philosophy for Cataclysm

As we've come to expect him to, Ghostcrawler responds with a fairly in-depth answer. He covers the difficulty of balancing two or more specs in a class that fulfill the same role and how this experience in Wrath of the Lich King helped guide Blizzard in its systems overhaul for Cataclysm.
I'm going to quote the entire reply in full because it's got implications for the game well beyond Wrath.
Ghostcrawler - Re: Why weren't they fixed?When there are multiple specs that fill the same role, as is the case for Fire vs. Frost mage or Arms vs. Fury warrior, we have found that some players will play their favored spec because they like the theme or mechanics, as long as the damage difference isn't too significant. Sadly, those players also seem to be in the minority. Many others will respec, regem, etc. for even a slight *theoretical* (very important word there) gain in dps.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
There are two very interesting aspects to this answer from my perspective. The first is the idea that player behavior creates feedback that affects design during as well as after an expansion. Not only were these four specs affected by player behavior (i.e., it was player choice that caused the development team to fear going too high with these specs because it had witnessed players' feeling "forced" to switch out of BM to survival when that spec was buffed), but the design of Cataclysm going forward is directly addressing this tendency by giving the developers more knobs to turn, so to speak.
Secondly, the idea that players are willing to completely relearn a class or spec between expansions with much greater tolerance than they are during an expansion has implications for how and when designers can adjust a class or spec that isn't matching up. In fact, this reluctance creates a situation in which, as a designer, you have to aim for gradual increases until you're given the freedom of redesign offered by an expansion patch.
What makes Cataclysm so interesting there is that it is an expansion designed to give more tools for such small corrections during its own life cycle, in effect taking the lessons of The Burning Crusade and Wrath and incorporating them into the systems of the game itself. Since we know small corrections will have to be made and that very often those small corrections will have unforeseen consequences (like making one spec overtake another), one of the goals of Cataclysm's design becomes incorporating more hooks for the design to be adjusted around, to prevent players from feeling forced to switch specs to be competitive.
The idea of designing the game to alleviate that aspect, to make it less likely that players will be frustrated by waking up and being forced to relearn their class, is definitely a pretty large shift for the game. If it works, it could create a World of Warcraft unlike anything we've ever seen in the six years of its history -- one that has learned from itself.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm will destroy Azeroth as we know it; nothing will be the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion (available Dec. 7, 2010), from brand new races to revamped quests and zones. Visit our Cataclysm news category for the most recent posts having to do with the Cataclysm expansion.Filed under: Hunter, Mage, Rogue, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
brian Nov 2nd 2010 10:10PM
But see, tweaking coefficients would totally throw off the PvP/PvE balance, which is why they don't do that unless the spec is overperforming/underperforming in both, or if the spell is one that is only used in one area.
What they did is give themselves more knobs to turn than just coefficients, base amounts, or talents. The specializations give them another option, as does mastery. As well, they likely have made the talents easier to change without breaking them, as they weren't able to do so in the past without patches.
Dezaris Nov 2nd 2010 6:58PM
Interesting! I think the design intent and balance of healing specs requires more urgent attention, though.
Orkchop Nov 2nd 2010 7:08PM
Man, it's going to feel weird when a new patch comes out and DK's don't have to learn a new rotation. We'd have stuff change up in minor patches! But it's for the better, really.
Dale Nov 2nd 2010 7:48PM
I now always played the class and tree I want to play. I played the BM hunter because I loved it. Yes, I got kicked from a *few* dungeons for being one but who cares. I have fun and enjoy the game. I used to follow the 'play this tree' way, and it sucked. Now I have fun in the game again and thats all that matters.
dirac Nov 2nd 2010 7:53PM
All I know is, since 4.0.1 dropped, I've had more fun playing my Sub rogue than ever before. Sub always felt like the most interesting spec to me, but it became pretty clear while leveling that my damage was far less than Combat and Assassination. Thus, I leveled my rogue with the intent to only use her in PvP - which is a shame really, because I love playing her, and while I like PvP, it's not why I play WoW.
Now, I feel like I have a shot at being raid-worthy. Sure it's a bit of a crazy spec and the `rotation' is all over the place - but it does real damage now, and I think if you have a good understanding of how it's supposed to work, you can put out a lot of damage and even bring some raid utility. I still have a dual spec option for Assassination (which is much less annoying now without HfB, IMO) but well, I feel like I'm being given more of a choice now in how I want to play, and that I'm being given the opportunity to let skill with my spec outweigh choosing the `only good spec' as the variable that determines my performance in a raid.
Artificial Nov 2nd 2010 9:04PM
This is good to hear. I gave up on a sub rogue some time ago, but it's been my intention to start a new goblin rogue as subtlety once the expansion hits. I've always felt subtlety was the most fun. It feels like the rogue that has the most tricks up her sleeve, which is at the heart of what I think of when I think of rogues.
Eldoron Nov 2nd 2010 11:06PM
stunlock kill ftw right?
Dezaris Nov 2nd 2010 11:51PM
@Eldoron
Not so much anymore, more health, and CS and KS share a DR. Less binary PvP now with rogues. A lot more fun too
dirac Nov 2nd 2010 11:52PM
Actually, no... stunlocks aren't really that great anymore. Better to use some skill and actually fight. And anyway, in PvE, I'm not exactly gonna be stunlocking Deathwing.
shadowhowl1900 Nov 2nd 2010 8:01PM
ghostcrawler is a warrior? (from cover picture)
now it makes sense why he hates pallies...
Eldoron Nov 2nd 2010 11:05PM
ghostcrawler is a lead class designer, nvm ;)
Boozard Nov 2nd 2010 8:04PM
i think the answer is to give more utility to specs that don't offer as much by way of dps. specifically, CC and buffs must be given to certain soft-hitting specs to make them more desireable than they currently are. in this respect, i actually disagree with the current direction of having a certain buff or ability available in several classes. raids have absolutely less reason to diversify and soft-hitting specs are in danger of being locked out of pug raids.
Artificial Nov 2nd 2010 9:07PM
That's treating the symptom rather than the disease. There shouldn't be "soft-hitting specs" to begin with. Why try to create mechanics to make players want to bring along sub-par specs when it makes more sense to just make sure everyone is up to par? That's just exacerbating the problem rather than solving it.
Boozard Nov 3rd 2010 3:33AM
perhaps soft-hitting is the wrong word. i somewhat agree with you that a spec should be competitive to an extent. but they have to have differences that would make the spec valuable to the group despite a somewhat lower dps output than the other spec. as GC said, majority of the people will spec to whatever theoretically puts out more damage regardless of how little the difference actually is. simply put, majority of dps people will usually go for the top dps spec because there's just no reason not to. all other things being equal, why settle for 20000 dps spec when you can spec 20200 dps? and from a raid stand point, why take a 20000 dps spec when the place is crawling with 20200 dps spec? the difference is small but it is there. they just need to add aspects to the fight model so that the 200 dps can be/need to be ignored. i'm hoping the return of CC will help with that.
jacksworth Nov 2nd 2010 8:18PM
"If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM."
Gotta love how warriors are always grouped in with pures. Maybe this explains why they are top dps every expansion, and immune to the hybrid tax.
Monion Nov 2nd 2010 8:49PM
Go take a look at the World of Logs reports for ICC and look for Subtlety, Arms, Frost (mage) and BM and come back and tell us how many you find in the top DPS parses.
This has nothing to do with hybrid tax and everything to do with certain specs just not performing at the same level as other specs in the same class.
Gotta love how people bring up strawmen to prop up their own personal crusades.
Eldoron Nov 2nd 2010 11:08PM
Jack, you lost the game. He mentioned these classes because these did less dps than the other dps spec totally similar to them. Did you even read the article?
Revrant Nov 2nd 2010 9:06PM
"If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level."
Uh, as I recall you nerf-raped BM into one of the worst performing DPS specs in the game because of the exaggerated totals of chinese uber-players on Patchwerk, buffed SV, and left MM largely alone.
Then after the backlash from the ultra-nerf caused many players to outright abandon the game(myself included) because their favorite spec was destroyed and the raids wouldn't have them, you quickly applied a BM buff to save face.
This still left BM in a very poor performance area, but they weren't the bottom of the barrel anymore.
GC sometimes gets a revisionist view on how this stuff went down to save face, I don't know why, we can go back on MMO champ and see his posts detailing the Patchwerk results, we're not stupid.
That said, BM is wonderful in 4.0.1, I'm enjoying it immensely, the pets are viable and cool, the rotation is a lot more challenging and rewarding, and about the only thing it needs is a nicer mastery and a signature shot.
Then it will be a feature complete, competitive, and fun DPS spec, a long time coming for BM.
Talitha Nov 2nd 2010 9:27PM
No, they nerfed BM because BM was literally heads and shoulders above every single other spec (regardless of class) throughout the entire BC and very early LK.
Here's a screenshot of a BM hunter in Naxx: http://www.aspectofthehare.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wowscrnshot_010209_215810_edit.jpg
Did you see the breakdown of the shots used? All BM did throughout BC was spam Steadies over and over, with the occasional Serpent Sting thrown in, and Bestial Wrath.
BM was stinkingly OP for an entire expansion, and it was literally an one-button class.
I speak with respect for all the fans of BM spec, but... you don't have it terribly bad; most people I run with are willing to allow hunters use BM spec, and your damage is decently close to MM and SV.
During BC, MM and SV doesn't exist at all except for a few stubborn hunters (like me. I got SO MUCH grief for playing MM, it was not funny at all).
I only wanted to clarify matters. :)
Revrant Nov 2nd 2010 9:46PM
Not BC, the huge BM numbers came with the Wrath patch, in BC it was still a flunky spec and MM was still 'the' spec to be, BM, since I started near the end of vanilla, was, until the start of Wrath, a "oh ur bm lol noob" spec.
I wasn't even able to raid in BC because I refused to give it up, I'm not sure what you were playing, exactly, but MM was 'the' raiding spec for years, with BM being a leveling spec and SV being some kind of strange utility spec. The buffs to BM didn't arrive until Wrath, and indeed, it was incredibly powerful.
BM was rather boring though, simply from a gameplay perspective, BM damage, before the panic-patch that brought it back up, was atrocious AND boring, I forced myself to give it up in part due to the damage, but also for how boring it had become.
I loved the pets, and the pet abilities, but SV just had more to engage me rather than the refresh-cooldowns style of MM(not sure if that's changed since 4.0.1), now however I would say BM might be the most fun to play.
And the damage is competitive, if still third by a small margin.