Ghostcrawler shares DPS spec design philosophy for Cataclysm

As we've come to expect him to, Ghostcrawler responds with a fairly in-depth answer. He covers the difficulty of balancing two or more specs in a class that fulfill the same role and how this experience in Wrath of the Lich King helped guide Blizzard in its systems overhaul for Cataclysm.
I'm going to quote the entire reply in full because it's got implications for the game well beyond Wrath.
When there are multiple specs that fill the same role, as is the case for Fire vs. Frost mage or Arms vs. Fury warrior, we have found that some players will play their favored spec because they like the theme or mechanics, as long as the damage difference isn't too significant. Sadly, those players also seem to be in the minority. Many others will respec, regem, etc. for even a slight *theoretical* (very important word there) gain in dps.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival. (Let's please not turn the rest of this thread into a lecture about how if we had only listened to *your* idea for tweaking hunter damage, everything would have turned out fine.) We heard from many players how frustrating that was -- to wake up one day and have to learn to replay their class because the anointed highest dps spec was now a different tree completely. Players are much more tolerant of huge, sweeping changes between expansions than they are in between patches.
If you look at the patch history of the rest of LK, there were many tweaks to Subtlety, Arms, Frost and BM. We were cautious though, because we were trying to avoid driving everyone who played those classes to have to switch class to class. We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit.
We learned from this mistake though, and part of the overhaul of the talent trees was specifically to make tweaking a lot easier for us. The passive talent tree bonuses are just one example, but we also did things like break our old rules for how spell coefficients relate to things like cast times, and the budget of a talent point in general. We wanted to develop a system that gave us more knobs to adjust and more fine-tuning we could deploy in between expansions to adjust specs that are low without going over.
Here's hoping it works.
There are two very interesting aspects to this answer from my perspective. The first is the idea that player behavior creates feedback that affects design during as well as after an expansion. Not only were these four specs affected by player behavior (i.e., it was player choice that caused the development team to fear going too high with these specs because it had witnessed players' feeling "forced" to switch out of BM to survival when that spec was buffed), but the design of Cataclysm going forward is directly addressing this tendency by giving the developers more knobs to turn, so to speak.
Secondly, the idea that players are willing to completely relearn a class or spec between expansions with much greater tolerance than they are during an expansion has implications for how and when designers can adjust a class or spec that isn't matching up. In fact, this reluctance creates a situation in which, as a designer, you have to aim for gradual increases until you're given the freedom of redesign offered by an expansion patch.
What makes Cataclysm so interesting there is that it is an expansion designed to give more tools for such small corrections during its own life cycle, in effect taking the lessons of The Burning Crusade and Wrath and incorporating them into the systems of the game itself. Since we know small corrections will have to be made and that very often those small corrections will have unforeseen consequences (like making one spec overtake another), one of the goals of Cataclysm's design becomes incorporating more hooks for the design to be adjusted around, to prevent players from feeling forced to switch specs to be competitive.
The idea of designing the game to alleviate that aspect, to make it less likely that players will be frustrated by waking up and being forced to relearn their class, is definitely a pretty large shift for the game. If it works, it could create a World of Warcraft unlike anything we've ever seen in the six years of its history -- one that has learned from itself.
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm will destroy Azeroth as we know it; nothing will be the same! In WoW Insider's Guide to Cataclysm, you can find out everything you need to know about WoW's third expansion (available Dec. 7, 2010), from brand new races to revamped quests and zones. Visit our Cataclysm news category for the most recent posts having to do with the Cataclysm expansion.Filed under: Hunter, Mage, Rogue, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Wrath of the Lich King, Cataclysm






Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Eldoron Nov 2nd 2010 11:04PM
Revrant you remember wrong. BM was indeed the way to go in BC. It's fame stayed for early Wrath, but then it faded. You could play MM in BC, maybe for pvp. Survival wasn't existing at all.
Talitha Nov 3rd 2010 12:05AM
Arguing is not my intent, but I wish to point out that you're incorrect, Revrant. I started playing in late 2005, and I was MM ever since. When BC dropped, and once people started raiding, my guild had five regular hunters, and all of them except me were BM... and man, did they have me a HARD time for being MM.
I'm serious - go read Aspect of the Hare, BigRedKitty, and any other BM blogs, and search for 2007 posts concerning raiding. BM was THE spec for everything - grinding, PvP, heroics, and raids. MM could barely pass for PvP, and SV was the redheaded child.
I'm actually surprised you had difficulties with BM in BC, because, seriously, BM was ridiculously powerful.
Boobah Nov 3rd 2010 11:56AM
Yeah, BM was THE hunter spec in BC. Hard to screw up, forgiving on gear, and stackable; each BM in the raid gave everyone in the raid an extra 3% damage. MM was a spec that, with a lot of work, could avoid dragging the raid down; Survival was about even with MM, damage-wise, but you still got one Survival hunter per raid to debuff the boss with Expose Weakness.
HeroJéz Nov 2nd 2010 9:51PM
Blizzard will never balance WoW. That's a fact. If we can't 'live' with that - and I use that term loosely - then perhaps WoW isn't the game for us.
Eldoron Nov 2nd 2010 11:10PM
Another Blizz hater *sigh*. Blizz tries to balance WoW, and for the dps side they can succeed. PvP wise, one VS one balance is of course unachievable.
Eldoron Nov 2nd 2010 11:01PM
so then why can't they make enhancement dps competitive. maybe i really should go elemental...
ShammyGuy Nov 2nd 2010 11:29PM
I played for years on a private NwN server, at the overall "systems" were perfect. Eventually however, a few specific class combinations were superior in a majority of the area's in the game. At first, this we easily mitigated (and in my opinion, properly) by tweaking SOME of the area's, and taking that into consideration when creating new area's/encounters. Somewhere along the way, the "world" creator, got tired/lazy (don't blame him, it was free, all on his time/internet), and he started to try to "balance" everything by nerfing abilities, classes, giving buffs, etc. The server eventually died. This, IMHO, is what has happened in WoW. At first, new bosses/mechanics were added, and unique area's to make various classes better or worse, and everyone had a end game "boss" that they could really kick butt on. That's hard, takes time and can be stressful when a clever group of players finds a way around your creation. Instead, just normalized the classes apply a little nerf here, a buff there.... It can all be done by analyzing logs.
Sadly, WoW is pay 2 play game, and I EXPECT it to be done the first way. Hey, my Enhance shammy blows on this boss/encounter, however, you really want him in the next fight, he's good enough on most the rest, and his ability to offheal that one boss is great. Sure, we could do better with a Mage on bossx, and a little better on y and z, but wipe on parts this or that. THAT was what made vanilla fun. I really think they should just get rid of the talents all together it's so dumbed down now, and just make it a check box "spec a, b, or c" poof, cookie cutter talents(I had hoped for MORE choices/complexity to just kill the theory-crafting). Sorry, I really believe class balancing vs. area/encounter balancing is death to a living game. Seen it too many times. I see 4 months of Cat, to flush the system of WoW fun, then moving on. Kind of sad.
I am not bashing, I have cherished my wow time, and they are still making piles of cash, so they are doing something right, it's just not for me.
dsauto Nov 3rd 2010 12:02AM
I have played a warlock since vanilla-back then shadow/destro was my prefered spec. but most warlocks could play either destro or Afflict. depending on their own preferance. During WotLK Destro (Fire) was nerfed to approx. 3rd lowest DPS spec for any class of DPS & afflict. was in the top 5 DPS for any class but so complicated & terribad for target switching & such a long ramp up time that most players went destro for mobility/target switching as that was required to raid in any but a "Patchwerk" type stand & DPS fight. This affected how many warlocks got a raid place even though they were better geared or a better player.
Hopefully the new system will allow speccs. to be more even.
BTW Arcane mages are currently 1 shotting most all classes in PVP i hear???
caleb Nov 3rd 2010 3:16AM
I'm pretty sure Unholy is about 2k dps above frost least at 264 iLevel or so, ymmv.
Neirin Nov 3rd 2010 12:54AM
Seems like the devs are going to a lot of trouble to avoid listening to all my awesome ideas that would TOTALLY fix everything about WoW... ever.
I think it's kinda funny that the first response to this was a class balance suggestion/complaint.
thebitterfig Nov 3rd 2010 12:56AM
"We were trying to get the dps elevated without going over, and that's just a very small target to hit."
See, I hear what the crab is saying, but I don't really feel like they were even trying to do this.
These specs were behind for most of LK, and often by considerable margins. Even when they'd come out with major stuff, like Deep Freeze dealing damage, or perma-elemental, it never really felt like... it meant anything? Frost remained behind by a pretty sizable chunk of damage even after that, so it all felt like nothing more than "we don't want people playing these specs for personal reasons to be quite as embarrassed by it," rather than any sort of serious attempt to address underpowered specs.
In the meanwhile, there was a roller coaster of buffs and nerfs for DK of all sorts. It was natural given the newness of the class, but it was clear they were trying. The fact that they never once made a mistake and buffed the underpowered spec up over the established one by accident suggests that they weren't even aiming for "viable, but not superior" with any of BM, Frost, Sub, or Arms.
Whatthe Nov 3rd 2010 1:01AM
I am surprised no one has noticed the big elephant standing in the room.
"If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival."
Anyone who played a Hunter as a main during those first few patches the first couple of months in Wrath remembers, quite distinctly, that was not the case at all, not even remotely. What was done was a the following:
1) A comprehensive deconstruction of the Beast Mastery tree, talent by talent, to such a degree that it was left crippled beyond repair. So it was not like they were attempting to bring Surv and MM UP to BM, they crushed BM. In the same patch the also nerfed the AP coefficient contribution from Steady Shot from 20% down to 10%. That was the single largest nerf, and it hit all 3 trees equally. Again, not bringing Surv and MM up to BM standards, simply nerfing all 3, BM more than the rest.
2) MM got two talents weakly buffed to slightly improve its mana efficiency, which turned out to not be enough anyway, and they remained dependednt on JoW well past Ulduar. No direct DPS buffs. Some people played it out of dissatisfaction with the Survival rotation but were invariably mana starved and simply could not keep anywhere near Surv. Armor Penetration was barely available back then.
3) Survival, aside from the change to the mechanics to Improved Hunters Mark and Sniper Training all it got was finally a talent to replace the Placeholder Talent it shipped with and lived with throught Naxxramas with: Black Arrow. Which was not a DPS boost, but a mechanism to allow Lock and Load triggers without having to run to the target to drop a trap then run back to shoot.
4) Finally, the ONLY DPS boost was an unnerf of Explosive, which had been scaling from 19% in PTR, nerfed to 12 (or was it14%) scaling in the first few months of live (making it pretty much as useful a shot as Aimed is at the current time) which was brought up to 18% scaling during that infamous patch. And it was thus that Survival, with the new system of keeping up serpent sting/black arrow and keep sniper training up to be able to do its basic job as DPS became the only option for the Hunter who wanted to compete in DPS side by side in raids and not be pity carried.
Now, I'm not bringing this up as a QQ. But as clarification of what actually occurred. the statement :
"If you recall earlier in the LK patch cycle, we attempted to bring Marks and Survival hunters up to the Beastmaster level. We didn't get the numbers quite right though, so what happened is that many hunters felt like they had to switch out of BM and into Survival."
Is, to put it in black and white terms, a falsehood. That is not what they did. That is not what took place.
Painfury Nov 3rd 2010 5:45AM
I always thought the reason for their lack of dps would be the fact that they were first and foremost pvp speccs as opposed to pve speccs, because to be honest that would have been a much better plan of action.
bui Nov 3rd 2010 8:06AM
This is what that post says to me. Blizzard is trying to get away from the "best" tree ideas, or "pvp" tree ideas. Its really trying to get back to the days of vanilla before everyone could see everyone else's talent trees and when spec's were guarded secrets. There was no "best" back in vanilla WoW there was what you thought was the best for you and to hell with what anyone else thought. Now 4 years after vanilla we have all kinds of numbers and people looking at them and deciding this is what works best and they have the math to prove it. So now progression guilds want you to spec that way or gtfo. I feel the reduction in the talent tree sizes along with GC saying that this way it would be easier for them to tweak things and maintain balance between the trees. Cause honestly I don't think there should be a best DPS spec or a PvP Tree, there should be people playing their class the way they want to play it because thats what makes it fun. I have been playing since a month after launch and I have enjoyed the game immensely, but I am looking forward to see if they can get away from the "this is the best" idea and get back to people playing the way they want to play the class they love. I don't know how or when this turned into a numbers game of well this spec does 100 more dps than that one but thats what this game has boiled down to over the years and now I have the hope that it will turn away from that and get back to being the game it used to focused more or content and strategy rather than arguments over who has better numbers.
Darkseid Nov 3rd 2010 8:43AM
My favorite part of the entire post was the...
"Here's hoping it works"
...line at the end. It shows that these guys are human too. And that even though they make the game, they still can't guarantee that a change made to the game wont be too much or too little.
Its a bit like they are the GM of a pro sports team. They can make all the right moves, put all the right players in place, but once all the contracts are signed and the team is set, all they can do is sit back and see how things work out.
Its the same on the live game servers. They may think they have all the numbers worked out, think everything is balanced perfectly, but once it goes live, no one really knows what will happen until the feedback comes in from players.
Thats why anyone who claims they 'knew all along' how to balance a class, spec, etc... is full of it. If you were to make changes before they go live, like the Blizz team has to, then much like GC and his team, all you can do is "hope it works" like he said above. You have NO WAY to be certain it will. And if you make your claims about what you "knew" to do after stuff has already gone live, then your just monday morning quarterbacking.
A great post by GC. And it certainly exlplains why some classes seemed to be forsaken by them throughout the LK expansion. So, "heres hoping..." there are no 'left behinds' at the beginning of this expansion. That all dps class/specs are at least in the ballpark, so people can feel free to play what they like best, not simply what works best.
EaterOfBirds Nov 3rd 2010 9:48AM
i consider myself to be one of those guys who plays the crap spec they enjoy, rather than whats competitive, unless the difference was insane. Arms/prot frorever baby.
duskhawk Nov 3rd 2010 10:21AM
I'm one of those people who finds a spec I love for a class and more or less stick to it. (Other than my poor Subtlety rogue, who I dual-spec'd Mutilate when in came available so I wouldn't be a liability in groups.) Generally it's about the concept, the idea I have for the character, and if I'm lucky it's not a spec that suffers in group play.
I've always been a MM hunter, a Disc priest, a Subtlety rogue (main spec, at least), a Fury/Prot warrior, an Elemental shaman, and a Destro lock. They're concepts and styles I enjoy. I'll regem or enchant to improve the spec I play, but I don't ditch what I like to play.
So I like the idea that Blizzard aims to fix specs, rather than have everyone gravitate to one, and I'm willing to ride it out and wait for a coefficient or whatnot to get tweaked rather than respec. Other than with Subtlety once dual-specs came out - there was no cause to inflict that kind of fail on a 5-man. :P
perderedeus Nov 3rd 2010 10:52AM
When I started playing my hunter, all the way back in Classic, BM and MM both appealed to me. BM was your typical ... well, master of beasts, and having a pet is what drew me to the class in the first place. On the other hand, MM reminded me more of a ranger, and this fit better with my character's initial backstory.
Then I saw Humar in the Barrens and I new I had to be BM. I've been BM ever since, either in spec or in spirit (WotLK had me switch to SV for a time - and while I enjoyed it, BM is still my spec of choice). Now in Cata, I'm back as BM and am very happy. My only gripe is a small one, and that's because Intimidation is our level 10 ability... whereas MM and SV get Aimed and Explosive Shot, respectively. Intimidation has its uses, but it isn't up there with Aimed and ES...
rkaliski Nov 3rd 2010 11:58AM
Perhaps the real problem is to have trees with the same purpose? Hunters seem to be in the majority of the players complaning about their specs. Why should they have just three DPS specs? Perhaps one spec should be ranged only, no pet. Another be dps with the pet and the third have a bend towards crowd control? With the advent of dual spec it's not like everyone is stuck with just one reason for being in a raid.
Ever hear a piano player fool around by changing the tempo of a song? It sounds, classical, jazz and then perhaps rock. It's still the same song played different ways. Each tree should be something different. At least a verse or two different.
Revrant Nov 3rd 2010 4:12PM
We'll have to agree to disagree, my experience was entirely different.