Lichborne: The lowdown on diseaseless blood tanking

With everyone getting used to blood being the sole tanking tree, combined with all the new tanking style changes already here in patch 4.0.1 (and more to come in Cataclysm), we've been working at crunching numbers and figuring out strategies to deal with it all. One of the most interesting new paradigms to come out of this is actually a pretty old one: diseaseless blood. Diseaseless blood DPS did rear its head every once in a while back in the Wrath era, and now it's back for tanking. At both the heroic dungeon and raid levels, death knight tanks all over WoW are reporting diseaseless tanking as a superior playstyle in ease of use, survivability and threat generation.
Why drop the diseases?
There's a few reasons for dropping diseases. To start with, our main defensive strike, Death Strike, no longer depends on diseases. No matter if you have one disease, two diseases, or no diseases up, Death Strike will do the same amount of damage and heal you based not on your damage dealt but your damage taken. Also, Icy Touch no longer provides an extra burst of threat when cast. Finally, disease damage in general is rather small, and with Pestilence only spreading diseases at 50 percent damage, it's even worse for AoE situations. Even beyond that, diseaseless offers some very definite advantages. You'll get earlier snap threat because you're not wasting time casting or refreshing diseases, and you'll get more healing power since you can use that frost and unholy rule to use another Death Strike.
There are some downsides to going the diseaseless route, of course. You do lose the 20 percent attack speed debuff off of Frost Fever, and your Heart Strike and Blood Boil will lose some damage and thereby will lose a little threat. Overall, though, reports from many death tanks report that any long-term threat they might lose from lack of diseases is hardly worth worrying about, since the snap threat at the beginning of the battle makes up for it. In addition, that 20 percent attack speed debuff can be taken care of by another member of the raid in many cases.
How to do it without diseases
A diseaseless build isn't actually too different from a disease-casting build. You'll want to get rid of any points you have in Epidemic, of course, and without the extra disease damage, those points in Blood-Caked Blade start looking a lot less appetizing. Crimson Scourge also loses some luster, though you will probably still want to pick it up for the 40 percent damage on Blood Boil. Otherwise, spec as normal.
For single-target fights, rune spending is pretty easy. Just alternate Death Strike and Heart Strike on the mob, with Rune Strikes when you can. On a boss, you may want to consider throwing up diseases eventually, if only because you might actually be fighting it long enough for the extra long term threat to make a difference. For multi-target attacks, you'll want to throw out Death and Decay first, followed by a quick Blood Boil, then tab through the mobs applying Death Strikes and Rune Strikes to keep your threat up until Death and Decay is ready to cast again.
Will Blizzard freeze out diseaseless tanking?
Of course, while diseaseless tanking gains traction in the community and recruits more and more devoted followers by the day, there's still that group that hangs back and offers words of caution. Diseaseless death knight builds have come and gone in the past, certainly, and every time, Blizzard has eventually made some adjustment to squelch them. This time may be no different.
One can argue, of course, that diseaseless tanking will naturally "go away" at level 81, when Outbreak gives us the option to apply diseases quickly, using no resources and only one GCD. At the same time, it does still have that 1-minute cooldown, so chances are diseaseless blood will still pretty much be diseaseless on most pulls.
If Blizzard decides to nerf diseaseless blood, Death Strike is the most likely target. The healing portion will probably be forever linked to damage taken, but if they wanted, the devs could hook the damage portion to diseases, making diseases mandatory in order to keep threat while keeping Blood Shield up as much as possible. Of course, if they want to go the non-nerf route, it's possible that they could simply buff disease damage for death knight tanks to make the actual threat garnered by casting them not insignificant. There's also the possibility of adding the threat bonus back to Icy Touch, but that might be putting too many threat tools in our arsenal, and Blizzard seems more or less dedicated to making threat something you have to work for in Cataclysm.
So there's a strong argument against getting too comfortable with diseaseless tanking, for sure. Blizzard's shown a pretty solid dedication to making sure death knights use their diseases at all times, and I wouldn't be surprised to see adjustments in game to make diseases a must-use for tanks by patch 4.0.3. We'll probably still see some of the basics of diseaseless tanking stick around and used in tandem with Outbreak, if nothing else, so it probably won't hurt too much to use for the time being. Just don't get too used to it.
Filed under: Death Knight, (Death Knight) Lichborne






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Natsumi Nov 2nd 2010 3:09PM
I never even tried this, and I probably never will. lol
Aceman67 Nov 3rd 2010 2:04AM
I don't know why they down rated this, Its a simple statement of a persons preferences.
I for one Have tried it, and I don't like it. It doesn't fit my play style ingrained in me from being a Blood Tank and Blood DPS all through out Wrath (with the exception of experimenting with Frost Tanking for a month or two). I stuck with those two specs because the play styles were similar, and while Blood DPS wasn't always the best DPS spec, It certainly was the best tank spec, which is why the Blood Tree is now a dedicated tank tree.
Stop being mean bastards and downrating comments based on peoples personal Preferences. You have to remember: WoW is a game. You play it how you want to play it, and personal preferences plays a big part of that.
Aceman67 Nov 3rd 2010 2:06AM
Also, its not a matter of if blizz nerfs this into uselessness, its a matter of when.
Darasen Nov 3rd 2010 11:07AM
I think it was the pointless "lol" that got it down rated. Muchf like the guy at the office that actually laughs at his own inanity.
"I've never been to Ohio. Ha ha ha",
Can't stand that guy.
feniks9174 Nov 2nd 2010 3:12PM
Every time I hear something about a new Diseaseless build, I get the feeling that there is someone out there at EJ or wherever that, for some reason, hates using diseases is bound and determined to find a way around using them. At which point I wonder . . "Dude, why not just go play a warrior?"
Ilmyrn Nov 2nd 2010 3:17PM
That's more or less how I feel. Why are people spending SO much time and effort trying to avoid using what is, arguably, the core concept of the the class? Are or were there rogues determined to eschew combo points and finishers? Druids trying to melee DPS in caster form? Melee mages?
Vladeon Nov 2nd 2010 3:35PM
honestly, the reason why many people like diseaseless tanking on a DK is because it does offer some substantial bonuses, especially in aoe situations. The faster you can pick up a mob, the quicker your dps can start aoeing them down. Or conversely, since dps are so used to aoe dpsing right off the bat, not using diseases will make you look like a pro since you won't have 4 out of the 5 mobs peeling off of you to go chomp on your mage's face.
TL;DR version: not only is it much easier to not use diseases, but it's also much more effective in aoe environments. If you want to switch to using diseases for long boss fights, like festergut, that would be a good idea as that's what I do.
Tom Nov 2nd 2010 3:40PM
I've had that thought about some DPSers, but most tanks I've talked with have adopted this sincerely out of desire to speed up their threat. This was simply a great way to do so, to them.
Crazyates Nov 2nd 2010 4:03PM
I'm actually a huge fan of alternative specs, and this article makes me very intrigued and happy.
Shockadin Forever!
JKWood Nov 2nd 2010 4:03PM
In a game with 12 million subscribers and only 30 specs, someone is bound to push the envelope. So, we see things like the Frostfire mage, the Discipline DPS priest, the Shockadin (which, for now, appears to be back), the Protribution paladin, Titan's Grip/Single-minded Fury warriors, Dual-wield/Two-handed Frost DKs, the Bleed/No-bleed Subtlety rogue, Single-target/AOE tank builds, and Feral Cat/Feral Bear druids.
The truth is, as long as there is flexibility in how we spec, there will be people who try to max out that flexibility. Some of us do it to max our output, some do it for lore reasons, some do it just to have fun. If Blizzard doesn't like the path that one spec is taking, they'll change it (as Holy paladins can attest... over, and over, and over...). Until then, let us play the game we pay cash for every month.
In the case of diseaseless Blood tanks... they're not hurting you by doing their job better.
Also, warriors don't self-heal or tank with two-handers.
Revynn Nov 2nd 2010 4:08PM
I get the snap threat part. It makes a lot of sense in the pre-cata-post-4.0 world where DPS are still in ZOMGZERGAOELOLHAHA!!!!111 mode but tank threat is significantly more challenging to create and maintain, but diseaseless Blood is not a new concept. In fact, now that I think about it, I'm fairly sure that I've always seen at least one person over at EJ ask "So is diseaseless Blood viable again?" after every major content patch or talent reset.
Temporarily ignoring diseases when things are already wonky and in flux is understandable. Looking at every tweak or talent change as an opportunity to drop the core mechanic of the class is silly.
Bapo Nov 2nd 2010 4:19PM
@JKwood
Warriors can via Enraged Regeneration, Field Dressing if specced for it, and victory rush, which can get pretty beastly. And for some lower instances, a fury warrior running around in tank gear is pretty amusing, and they get bloodthirst as well
Shane Nov 2nd 2010 4:56PM
It's actually the exact opposite. People look for the path of least resistance. In the current situation, tanking without diseases generates more threat in less time amongst packs of trash (and possibly bosses as well); since that is the easier way, that is what people gravitate towards.
For the devs, they need to make sure that they're not fighting human nature in their design choices - that is always a losing battle. Outbreak is one great tool; another would be to find a way to boost early threat for DKs so they can keep pace with DPS. If we can hold onto aggro long enough to put up the diseases, I believe most players would do so. As it currently stands, however, I am getting aggro ripped from me before I can Pestilence the group. DnD > BB > RS/DS eliminates that. Why wouldn't I go that way?
If they do truly want diseases to be at the core of Death Knight play style, they need to find a way to make diseases matter to tanks. The damage it does and the effects they have just aren't enough. Perhaps a tank-only disease that has an increasing threat-over-time effect, or one that siphons health to the tank.
Mr. Tastix Nov 2nd 2010 6:02PM
@feniks9174: That's what it looks like to you but the guy who does the death knight posts knows his stuff, he devotes a lot of time to researching death knight mechanics.
Elitist Jerks look at all possible methods, they will have looked at diseaseblood in previous patches as well (possibly every single one since the death knight's release) because they want to see what is the absolute best for the purpose.
Elitist Jerks are min-maxers at heart, that's what the guides are designed for: To help you reach your maximum potential. If this potential can be reached with no diseases, then don't do diseases. You're not really gimping yourself if you go diseaseless blood but your healers will love you for the extra Blood Shield.
DavidC Nov 2nd 2010 8:02PM
"Why are people spending SO much time and effort trying to avoid using what is, arguably, the core concept of the the class?"
Why do you care what a "core design concept" is anyways? Design != Reality in a lot of cases. The "Tanks" job is to ... well ... TANK. If they can do a better job tanking without using diseases then for the love of God don't try to discourage them.
So yea, nobody but the Dev's care about "core concept" ... the only "core concept" that players really care about are the main goals of the game: Kill Shit, Don't Die ... nuff said.
steve Nov 2nd 2010 8:38PM
I mostly tank using this method not because I hate/avoid diseases but because:
1- Im undergeared so trying to maintain aggro with 4 guys in icc25 gear isnt exactly the easiest thing.
2- It saves time, instead of waiting to pop diseases and then spreading I can just use Blood Boil twice, then Death Strike twice, and keep aggro while at the same time I keep myself alive.
However once i have established a 'good' aggro with mobs I try to spread at least Frost Plague, due to the attack speed reduction and higher damage of Blood boil. So most tanks out there not using diseases just because they dont like them, but instead just find it more 'practical'.
Artificial Nov 2nd 2010 9:37PM
Funny, whenever I see this, I tend to think the exact opposite. The main reason for coming up with working diseaseless builds is to demonstrate how badly diseases need buffing. If you can show that they've been nerfed to the point that they're more trouble than they're worth, you give Blizzard a strong incentive to make diseases more powerful and/or useful. If you love diseases, you should go out of your way to *demonstrate* to Blizzard that diseases seriously need some love...
Gravity Nov 2nd 2010 9:58PM
We had a great discusion on diseaseless blood at pwnwear, for those who want to continue the chat. Consensus is that it's fine for 5-mans, and very workable even in raids.
http://pwnwear.com/forum/diseaseless-blood-t710.html
transientmind Nov 3rd 2010 3:13AM
The really big issue in favour of diseaseless at the moment is snap threat and GCD.
In most heroics at the moment, I swear DK tanks are only having issues because DnD used to stick the mobs to us like glue and we could drop it every pull. Now we can't, because the cooldown's been turned into a half-hour (slight exaggeration) and asking ANY dpser to hold off for the four full GCDs you need to get multi-threat WITHOUT DnD provokes a reaction similar to as if you just told them you're about to kill their dog. ("WHAT?! Wait? WHY!? OMG, you monster! Who is this noob? Make him go away!")
After all, as another poster said on the hunter threat thread: agroing the first mob in a pack is currently akin to screaming, "On my mark... UNLEASH HELL!"
Right now with disease-tanking, the only way to go is save DnD for packs of 3+ and hit any 2-mob pulls (3 if there's a weak one or caster you can DG) with the diseases, rune/heart strikes and so forth staight up, then taunt the one that inevitably peels off to kill the DPSers.
Narshe Nov 3rd 2010 12:36PM
@ Shane "Perhaps a tank-only disease that has an increasing threat-over-time effect, or one that siphons health to the tank."
Great idea. The disease itself could even be a proc off another attack like DS. That, or have a talent that can proc from the new disease being on your current target. Or just have talents that function better with diseases to begin with.