Breakfast Topic: Does world PvP feel dishonorable?
by Erik Pollard 
Nov 6th 2010 at 8:00AM
I had a friend who would take every opportunity she was presented with to engage in world PvP. We could be in the middle of questing together and suddenly I would notice that her orc huntress was nowhere to be found. Come to find out that some poor Alliance player had wandered into her minimap and was being hunted down by her and her pet wolf.
In theory, world PvP works. Throw a bunch of people together in a big world and let them have at it. In practice, though, it isn't that cut and dried. The first toon I rolled was on a PvP server (because that was where my gaming friends were), and coming from a FPS gaming background, one of aspects of the game that excited me the most was the prospect of duking it out with the enemy in epic battles and guerilla hit-and-run skirmishes. Then reality hit me. What I thought was going to be honorable combat was actually more like gang warfare. Behind the veil of anonymity, players became bullies, targeting weaker players for their in-game gratification -- which in turn lessened others' gameplay experience and created the wrong kind of tension.
The flip side is the fact that people not interested in being targeted at every turn can roll toons on PvE servers. But what about toons that are already on PvP servers? Transferring off may be cost-prohibitive for some and others may not want to leave behind the friendships they have forged. Still others may see the problems with world PvP just an irritant and not worth the trouble of transferring.
As for my friend the orc? Well, being constantly ganked and griefed got too much for her and she transferred to a PvE server. So what is the solution? Should there be in-game consequences for dishonorable actions like ganking and griefing? Or is world PvP perfect just the way it is?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 11)
Isaac Nov 6th 2010 8:10AM
It's a gank or be ganked world, and I love it. I roled my first toon on pvp server and I enjoyed it, half the fun was re-spawning in a spot where they couldn't see you and then surprising them when you get them back and camp their body for the next half hour.
theabsion Nov 8th 2010 3:09PM
Yeah, very fun respawning and surprising someone, unless he's 30 levels over you. Then it's respawn, hide and run, and pray he doesn't find you again.
They should bring back dishonorable kills, and only lower your honor if the higher level is the one who engages.
Squirr3llywrath9 Nov 6th 2010 10:25AM
He was probably downrated because ganking isn't really a respectable form of PvP. Leaving it at that, he has the right frame of mind for PvP realms; Kill or be killed. Just because you spare someone while they are fighting a mob doesn't mean that they will return the favor. I have been playing on PvP realms for the past five years and I had to learn the hard way. PvP realms are not a place for carebears or the easily frustrated.
Kroof Nov 6th 2010 10:54AM
I rolled most of my characters on PvE realms.
For this exact reason.
When you specifically make toons on a server where anyone can attack you, expect to be attacked.
That being said, I recently transferred my main to a PvP server, my guild was going and I had little choice. I was scared to death of always being ganked by uber Arena Masters and the like. I generally hate PvP and have crap gear for it.
I am having so much fun! I cannot count how many times I have rolled up on some afk alliance sitting outside Sethekk Halls, who come back to their keyboard far too late to save themselves. I particularly love finding a lone low level alliance and one shotting them with Heroic Throw. Just the other day I killed a Prot Paladin no less than 4 times while he and I were attempting to get our Argent Tournament dailies done.
I also was unable to complete my fishing daily, as a paladin was camping River's Heart one day. I did not QQ, I did not scream "Dishonor"! I hid in a bush and fished as best I could.
Is it honorable? Not in the least. Is it fun? Yes!
Now, I enjoy it less when I am on the receiving end of such destruction. However, I made toons on this server knowing this could happen. I accept the fact that I may be spawn camped and griefed until I short out my keyboard with a deluge of salty tears.
I accept the risks and consequences of my actions.
TonyMcS Nov 6th 2010 11:17AM
If you want honorable PvP then do it on an PvE server. Arena and Bgs both have rules and you can indulge in open warfare in WG (whether or not the battle's on or not). You can raid the opposite factions cities and generally have a great time and then relax when you're not PvP flagged.
I understand the attraction of world PvP, but the adrenalin wears off and it's a haven for bullies and gankers. If that's what you like then go for it, but I'm happy to indulge in PvP when I feel like it.
As for those wanting more honor on a PvP server, I can only refer you to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
"Rules? In a knife fight?"
Hawk Nov 6th 2010 12:30PM
I agree. I almost always engage in world pvp when the opportunity presents itself to me. That's why I'm on a pvp server, I enjoy the constant warfare aspect of the game. The fact that the next battle could be just around the corner is fun for me. When Im leveling I even smile when a higher level player ganks me, cause I know if our situations were reversed it would have been him running back to his corpse.
One thing I will not due is camp a players corpse. If Im passing by a brand new level 1 on my fully epic'd 80 I will bury him and keep moving. But I won't camp. I'm here to have fun, not to actively grief another person. Even when Im in a back and forth gank battle with another player I usually back off their corpse and give them the opportunity to recover before its game-on again.
PictoKong Nov 6th 2010 12:39PM
I Agree with Hawk, I recently transferred to a PvP server and i leveled an Alt (Rogue) with a friend (Mage). We had a real blast. Often we would see an enemy 4-5 level above us and just kill him, sometimes with ease. I recall in Hellfire Peninsula we were both at 59 and killed a level 65 Dead knight with just the 2 of us.
The thing i hate, and lucky haven't encountered yet is camping. Sometimes, i will see a lower level player, polymorph it, spellsteal, etc. Or i,ll kill it, only once, and then /wave when they respawn, but not kill them AGAIN (that is, if they do not fight back). Or sometimes ill help them for a few mobs, polymorph them to heal them up and just have fun before leaving them alone (it must really feel weird being healed by a guy with a skull and a red name ;)
CDave Nov 6th 2010 12:41PM
^^ Major props for the Sundance reference :D
I would like to add that not all world PvP is entirely dishonerable, as I'm sure we all know, but I would like to share my story. I was doing the daily Argent quessts on my paladn once and got into a fight with a shaman doing the exact same thing. I killed him first and went about my business, but when he respawned he found and killed me. Naturally, I wanted revenge when I respawned, but realized after I clicked that he was right behind. To my shock, he just waved and sat down while I healed myself back to full. When I finished he stood up, backed up a little, and unshealthed his weapons. I got the hint and did the same and we fought again. For the next 45 minutes! We repeated this cycle so many times I lost count of who killed who more, it was just so much fun! We eventually finished our daillies (together in peace) and waved farewell. We still run into each other once in awhile and will always have a few duels, typically started with a "friendly gank", something I'd like to think I could copyright.
I'm aware that this friend of mine and I represent an incredibly small fraction of world PvPers, but there can be honor in some of us.
BTW our new game is dueling guildies out in the world, then having the other jump out and kill them afterwards. Too far maybe? It's good for a one time prank among the guild, who now take to it as a kind of hazing or badge of honor.
Sqtsquish Nov 6th 2010 1:00PM
Personally I challenge myself with being able to take on as many ally my level or higher as possible. For instance I know because of experience that I have been able to take on with my destro lock a holy and a ret pally at once while fighting off the guards of gadgetzan. Until the war games feature hits it is really the only way to "intentionally" put yourself in a position where you can quantify any improvement of your personal pvp skills (outside arena). Now on the other hand while farming mithril on my 80 dk for my engineer I've been leveling I've had numerous opportunities to gank lower level players, but I didn't, not even when they were "stealing my nodes" because I am an 80- it isn't a zone that was made for me but instead it was made for their questing needs. Where I draw the line is- do I think that they could kill me? then yes they are fair game.
mhm Nov 6th 2010 3:07PM
Seed, why did you even write this, idk(not to complain about prose or writing skill, it all looks great)? If you are on a pvp realm, flagged for pvp, or in a pvp situation you can not complain. The person in charge of that toon made the decision to become flagged. I played on a pve realm to start and when i switched to a pvp realm i found the experience interesting. Yes it is frustrating but once you get the idea your level of game play and understanding of the mechanics of your character will go way up. I honestly believe it makes you a better player, you have to watch your back all the time an then even become the hunter yourself. Now a max level character in a low level zone that is just silly and rude but i have been on both my mage and priest and killed toons 10 levels higher then me, with a little luck and skill you would suprised what you can accomplish and learn from world pvp. FYI i play horde on an alliance dominated PVP realm. Good luck in all your battles:)
Olicon Nov 6th 2010 4:11PM
That's the kind of play that I hate, both to play against, or as.
I remember when we first start out--I roam the map with a bunch of friends fighting people too. But it wasn't ganking. We would wait until they finish killing whatever mobs they were killing, then walk up and challenge them. We (or at least I) didn't gank lower level players. We never overwhelm them with our number (if there's 1 of them, then only 1 of us step up). We would tag the target with a wand, or range attack (we didn't have a warrior, or a rogue, so we didn't have to worry about being in combat) to show our intention to fight. If they stay, then it's on. If not, they run, we let them. Most of the time my friends give chase--I don't.
I guess I'm just the minority out there that have fun from fighting a good fight, not killing a defenseless lowbie.
Anaughtybear Nov 6th 2010 6:02PM
World PvP is the only real PvP. Battlegrounds/arenas are artificial. It's the difference between a street fight and laser tag.
Tiarnach Nov 6th 2010 6:09PM
Ok but waitaminit.
Ganking 80s is an entirely different beast from ganking 40s. The first, I feel, is justifiable. You're an Orc, I'm a Human, this is not ending well for one of us, and if I'd like it to be me, I should sneak up and gank you from behind. With a fear. Followed by a stun or three.
The latter is simply neurosis. Why pick on the little toons? Kill their questgivers to bait the mains and guildies, sure, but that little 35 in Auberdine getting his backside handed to him was you once.
That's the sort of distinction I wish WoW world PvP made. There is no honor in ganking noobs and lowbies. That is the dishonorable side of WoW's current world PvP system, and I think it should be reflected as such in the honor currency system. I think once the other player is like 10 levels under you, you should not just not gain honor, you should lose a little--i.e. pick up dishonor.
McRaider Nov 7th 2010 12:36PM
@Triarnach
I first thought that making it impossible to attack an enemy some 10 levels below you, but losing honor... damn :D
The only problem with it would be that if you had a very low to no honor, then this system wouldn't stop you in any way. Maybe if honor could drop below zero, the problem would be solved. Or better, give the player a penalty for it. Eg. if it drops a little under 0, give him some sort of debuff that noobens (don't think that's really a word o.O) him down for say, an hour. When he is a lot under 0, he can't attack any enemies for an hour. That would be cruel.
I personally don't like PvP although I'm on a RPPvP realm. I'm on Ravenholdt- EU just because all my friends are there and they don't like to transfer to another realm. When I leveled my main, there was an infamous guild on the realm called Zylos Hand. I got ganked by them so many times, that I was close to transfer my ass out of there and leaving my friends behind, but because I was playing a prot paladin, the ganking rogues started to get easier and easier every level, so I kept on going. Ironically, when I dinged 80 and had gotten a few epics, they transferred to another realm. Now that they're back again, I don't want to level my draenei mage because of them :/
My advice: If you have to stay on a PvP realm, even if you don't like it, level as quickly as you can (preferably at night or early morning) to lvl 80 and start sitting in Dalaran, or SW/ORG in cata.
PS. Gosh it's going to be a huge gankfest when cata releases...
McRaider Nov 7th 2010 12:36PM
@Triarnach
I first thought that making it impossible to attack an enemy some 10 levels below you, but losing honor... damn :D
The only problem with it would be that if you had a very low to no honor, then this system wouldn't stop you in any way. Maybe if honor could drop below zero, the problem would be solved. Or better, give the player a penalty for it. Eg. if it drops a little under 0, give him some sort of debuff that noobens (don't think that's really a word o.O) him down for say, an hour. When he is a lot under 0, he can't attack any enemies for an hour. That would be cruel.
I personally don't like PvP although I'm on a RPPvP realm. I'm on Ravenholdt- EU just because all my friends are there and they don't like to transfer to another realm. When I leveled my main, there was an infamous guild on the realm called Zylos Hand. I got ganked by them so many times, that I was close to transfer my ass out of there and leaving my friends behind, but because I was playing a prot paladin, the ganking rogues started to get easier and easier every level, so I kept on going. Ironically, when I dinged 80 and had gotten a few epics, they transferred to another realm. Now that they're back again, I don't want to level my draenei mage because of them :/
My advice: If you have to stay on a PvP realm, even if you don't like it, level as quickly as you can (preferably at night or early morning) to lvl 80 and start sitting in Dalaran, or SW/ORG in cata.
PS. Gosh it's going to be a huge gankfest when cata releases...
HeroJéz Nov 6th 2010 8:09AM
If I ever world PvP I always sap/judge/Heroic Throw someone from far away and say Hi. That way they know who they're fighting and what they're up against.
Unless I see a Warlock or Priest... in which case I hit Ambush >> S.Dance >> Ambush >> Thistle Tea >> Ambush and just try and ruin them in seconds.
No offence fellas. I just hate your kind and everything you stand for.
Hehe.
Rakah Nov 6th 2010 8:38AM
i used to feel like that about arms and prot warriors. somtimes druids too.
Erzfiend Nov 6th 2010 10:01AM
"Hate your kind and everything you stand for"
Because, yano, that's not coming from a place of pure hate. It's okay to feel hurt sometimes... *hands you a box of tissues.*
HeroJéz Nov 6th 2010 10:57AM
I really thought the 'Hehe' would absolve me from down-ranking-ism.
How wrong I was...
This fills me with sadness... sadness and hate... HATE AND RAGEEEE.
Now I need to kill more Warlocks...
I can't kill this Shadow Priest though.. someone let him bubble himself, cast one of 4 instant-heals that can't be interrupted and if the worst comes to the worst throw up the best Shield Wall in the game.
This fills me with sadness.... sadness an... okay.. nvm.
Mr. Tastix Nov 6th 2010 11:14AM
Oh, you're a rogue, I see. Say hello to my little friends!
*Smashes face in with duel hammers.*
THIS FOR EVERY TIME YOU EVER SAPPED ME. FOR EVERY TIME YOU CLOAKED AND VANISHED AWAY FROM ME AT THE LAST MOMENT. FOR EVERY TIME I REVELLED IN ONE VICTORY ONLY FOR YOU TO STEAL IT FROM MY GRASP IN ONE STRIKE.
PREPARE. TO. DIE! *Battle Cry.*