Officers' Quarters: The great raid size debate, part 2

Last week, I received an email asking me for my thoughts on raid size in Cataclysm. As it turns out, I have quite a few thoughts -- three columns' worth, in fact, covering four different categories: gameplay, logistics, rewards and intangibles. My goal is to help officers and their guild members to choose which raid size is best suited for their guild. A week ago, I wrote about the gameplay category.
This week's column will cover two topics that have been linked together throughout the history of the game. From the very beginning of WoW, Blizzard has made a connection between more difficult logistics and greater rewards. Molten Core, Onyxia, and later 40-man raids rewarded the best available gear in their respective heydays. Throughout The Burning Crusade and Wrath, 25-man content yielded the best items. For Cataclysm, this paradigm is shifting.
Let's take a look at the logistics involved with the two raid sizes and the rewards that each size offers.
Logistics
- A 25-man raid requires an intense recruiting effort. A large and diverse roster is essential to field a 25-man consistently from week to week. There will almost always be a player or two who is unable to attend any given raid. Also, there's almost always a spec or a role that you need more of in order to ensure a well-balanced raid, so rarely do you get to relax your recruiting efforts. For a 10-man guild, on the other hand, you can get away with carrying just a few extra raiders. Once you reach a certain point at which you have enough dependable players, you can stop recruiting. If you're starting a guild from scratch, you're probably going to have to settle for 10-mans at first before you can build up to 25-man raids. Finding so many solid raiders is never an easy task.
- "Cat herding" is flat-out easier in 10-man raids. There can be little debate on this issue. Getting 10 people to show up on time and follow instructions is easier to do when you have fewer people to worry about.
- More raiders means more attendance and technical issues. In a 10-man, you have 15 fewer people who unexpectedly have to take a sick dog to the vet or entertain family from out of town. You have 15 fewer people who might have trouble logging in, experience weird addon problems, or DC during a boss fight. Such issues can lead to canceled raids, long mid-raid delays, or frustrating wipes. And the more raiders you're counting on, the more likely it is that some of them are going to disappoint you, hold you up, or make your night miserable.
- Subbing is easier in a larger raid. To counterbalance the previous point, it is generally easier to substitute players when you're working with a larger raid size. There are a few reasons for this. For one thing, if your raiders are using dual specs, then there's almost always someone who can switch roles to replace the person subbing out, if necessary. Another reason is that a larger raid depends less on each individual's performance. If you're swapping a player who does 8,000 DPS for one who does 6,000, that's easier to manage when the DPSer is one of 17 as opposed to one of six. Finally, larger raids are more likely to have multiple people who know how to perform specialized actions, such as using the Magnetic Core against Mimiron in phase 3 or "driving" the abomination against Professor Putricide.
- Scheduling difficulties are easier to manage with more players. The common thinking here would suggest the opposite, but I find that scheduling for fewer people actually creates more problems. The problem with the smaller raid size, especially if you have a tight-knit team, is that each person is so crucial. And because those players know that they're crucial, each one expects you to schedule around their own conflicts. Finding open nights for 25 players can sometimes be more difficult, but with a larger pool of players, it is easier to say, "This is the best night for the most people, so we all have to adjust" -- and get away with it. You're also less likely to cancel a raid due to one or two players' being unable to attend, because it's expected. In a 10, if two of your three tanks are /afk for the night, your raid is toast.
- Loot is easier to distribute in 10-man. Again, it's hard to argue against this. There are fewer items to give away and fewer people interested in each one. Even if you use a complex system such as EPGP, you still have fewer players to track within that system.
Rewards
- 25-man bosses are worth more valor points. According to Blizzard, 25-man bosses will be worth 105 valor points, compared to 75 in 10-man. Due to the weekly point cap, however, players who raid either size can still earn the same amount of points per week. Those who raid 10-man will be required to run a few extra daily heroics to reach the cap. For players who don't have much time to play outside of raids, larger groups will allow them to gear up faster.
- Normal 10s offer the same amount of items per player. In the April raiding announcement posted by Nethaera, she wrote, "25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold)." However, this is not currently the case in beta. Bosses in 10-man drop two items, or one item for every five players. Bosses in 25-man raids drop five items, or one item for every five players. The ratio is currently the same. However ...
- Heroic 25s will drop more items per player than Heroic 10s. I don't think this fact is widely known, but Ghostcrawler said exactly this back in June, and I haven't heard anything to contradict it since. If your guild plans to tackle heroic bosses, then there will be more loot to go around per player if you're raiding at the larger size. We don't know the exact numbers yet, but with heroic raid testing happening in the beta, we should find out soon.
- Fewer items will be sharded in 25s. Although the same ratio of items will drop in either size at normal difficulty, larger raids will be able to put more of those items to use. In 10s, you simply can't have every spec represented there, even if you count dual specs. In most cases, you probably won't even have every class represented. Larger raids will usually be able to field at least one player from each class. If you count dual specs, such a raid will generally have someone who can make good use of every item, at least for the few first months until the instance is farmed out. This issue is somewhat alleviated by the elimination of spec-specific stats like armor penetration and defense, but given the new armor specialization bonuses, I'd say the sharding issue will be worse, not better, in the expansion.
- Legendary items should be available for both sizes. In the same thread I linked above, Ghostcrawler confirmed that legendaries will be available in both 10s and 25s, unlike today. This intention was reiterated at the open Q&A at BlizzCon 2010.
- Achievements are equivalent. No distinction exists for either raid size as far as achievements are concerned, so players will earn the same achievements and achievement rewards, such as drakes, regardless of their preferred raid size. On a side note, remember that raid groups must consist of at least 80 percent guild members to earn guild achievements. That's easier to pull off in 10s if your guild has a smaller roster.
That's it for this week! Next week, I'll cover the intangibles category for the two raid sizes, as well as draw some overall conclusions to help you make this extremely important decision for your guild.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
QQinsider Nov 9th 2010 9:57AM
"As for competition, that part is true. Your odds of WINNING it are lower, since there's more likely to be someone else who wants it. However, if you're more likely to see it, it sort of balances out, right? "
It would balance out if both raid sizes had the same proportion of competitors for said item, but they don't. 25-man raids have a larger proportion of dps than 10-man and a lower proportion of tanks+healers (e.g. 2/10 tanks versus 3/25 = 20% of the raid are tanks in 10-man versus 12% in 25-man).
So tanks and healers would have a better chance of getting said item in 25-man, whereas dps would actually have a better chance in 10-man (in general, depends on what exactly the item is and how many dps classes want it).
Maalin Nov 8th 2010 2:19PM
WRT subbing, you need to factor in the new "flexible" raid lockouts. Before the new lockouts I was basically second string for our 25 progression group. Now being subbed in means abandoning my 10 for the week. (Both groups run heroic modes.) There may be more flexibility for raid leaders to sub people in early on while everything is on normal mode. But in the long run I think it will be harder for 25's because people won't be willing to save their lockout all week just in case the 25 needs them. Having a regular, dedicated, reliable group is going to be even more important than ever.
Samuel Nov 8th 2010 2:24PM
What is the point cap? How many heroics or raid bosses would be necessary to reach the cap?
One thing to consider is that if your guild prepares for a 25-man raid, and some people don't show up, you can split into two 10s. If, on the other hand, your guild prepares for a 10-man raid, and some people don't show up, you'll have to pug.
Ice Nov 8th 2010 2:57PM
Blizzard said that if you are raiding you will be capped without needing heroics.
Which means, thank god, that you dont have to run that daily heroic every day for 2 years to get capped on points to get best gear.
On 25man you just might get it faster.
Im pulling numbers out of my behind but lets take example.
Theres 13 bosses total in the start tier. 25man player can get capped with just around 8 bosses while 10man player might get capped around 10 bosses. At least thats what it implies to. If you miss raids or bosses you can just do (daily) heroic to get to the cap.
smashman Nov 8th 2010 2:27PM
Fewer items will be sharded in 25s.
^This
A lot (read:everyone) of people I know are complaining that 25s are going to die out because you get the same ratio of drops but they don't seem to realize that after awhile, most people are going to have the majority of the drops they need and are only looking for a few key pieces. 25 man guilds are simply going to see those items more often so while they may not get more drops early on in raiding, they're going to have a much easier time filling out the rest of the slots they need than a 10 man guild.
Assuming we don't get most of our gear from trading in our cereal box tokens for epics like we do now.
Sentralis Nov 8th 2010 2:29PM
Very good article, Oh how i long for the days of 40 mans again haha now that was some coordination and dedication.
Lukeyo Nov 8th 2010 2:30PM
Anybody can herd cattle. Holding together 10,000 half-wild shorthairs - now that's another thing altogether.
Firestyle Nov 8th 2010 2:48PM
One key factor offsetting loot quantity (in favor of 10 mans) is that if your 10 man is going to move faster than a 25 man, you're going to get more kills on bosses.
For example, my 10 man group was killing heroic sindy in march/april. My 25 man didn't get heroic sindy down until July. Presume April 1 and July 1 were the kill dates. That's three entire months of drops from heroic sindy offsetting the 2 vs. 5 drops between raid sizes. It's very likely that over 12 kills we'd have everything we needed off heroic sindy 10 before our 25 man even got a kill.
While that doesn't matter much given 5 more months on 25 man sindy, it will matter a lot more when we raid content for six months and not a year.
MuffinMan Nov 8th 2010 3:13PM
While this may be true currently due to the fact that, as someone stated before, the tuning for 10s and 25s right now is quite different. If all goes as planned, the tuning for 10s and 25s will be fairly equal come Cata raiding. So hopefully there will be equality in speed between the raid sizes and this will not occur. Otherwise, if this were still the case, many guilds would swap to 10 mans so they will be guaranteed the server first, since the achievements are now shared (from my understanding).
Firestyle Nov 8th 2010 3:19PM
I've seen this point come up in some forum threads as well. While the tuning may be more in-line between the raid sizes, there is no boss that has taken me three additional months to kill.
The challenges my guild faced in killing heroic sindy 25 was the attendance boss and the summer boss. It wasn't three months of attempts that took us until July to kill it.
At best, 25 man tuning on 10 man heroic sindy might have taken us another week of attempts.
Bru Nov 8th 2010 4:25PM
There's two things to consider. 1, as has been mentioned, 10s and 25s are currently tuned differently. 2 is related to 1, but it's very, very important to remember. 10s are tuned with the previous 10 man tier in mind. It was harder to go through content if you STRICTLY raided 10 mans, and used absolutely no 25 man loot. That point was moot, however, because 25 man equivalent loot has almost always been available to a 10 man raider. So every 10 man raid was made somewhat easier in comparison.
In Cata, there will be 0 difference in gear. Both raids will be tuned for the same exact gear level. Blizzard is trying very hard to make an equivalent encounter for both sizes. I personally don't think they'll succeed completely, but more power to them for attempting it.
I personally think the situation will arise where 25 mans are slightly easier than 10s simply because there will be more wiggle room. I don't think that they will be so much easier that it'll mean the difference between downing and not downing an encounter.
Rob Nov 8th 2010 4:42PM
Right, but don't forget the attendance boss is easier to kill on 10 man. It's much harder to get 25s off the ground and successful; that is the real mark of a good solid guild, one who can regularly field a 25. Although, I have to see, most of the guilds i've been in since Wraith have been 10 mans and very inconsistant. Raiding one day, not the next, because key people can not show up. That would be somewhat easier on 25s than 10s. However for me personally i'd rather not raid than raid 25s again. I don't really care that much about raiding, i just enjoy hanging with my friends. It's great to kill dragons (got LK down 3 weeks ago), but the times I spend with my friends are priceless, and that's harder (for me), in a 25 man, where you are a face in the crowd.
KPB Nov 8th 2010 6:59PM
I don't really think you can extrapolate from the current 10 vs 25 man and the way it will be in cataclysm. There are so many factors that aren't going to be the same in cataclysm.
1) They weren't necessarily tuned to be at the same level. Several fights were noticeably easier in 10 mans because of spread out to avoid X mechanics that are much easier to handle in 10 mans with the same space available as 25 mans but conversely there were other fights were mechanics made 25 mans much easier (OS 3D until people started zerging it). I expect most of these to be gone in Cataclysm.
2) It is virtually impossible not to outgear the 10 man instances in wrath. ICC was the prime example of this as even Strict 10 man raiders were picking up 264 badge/crafted gear before they killed LK to start heroic modes. They weren't getting any gear from the 25 mans but they still had access to higher level gear than was dropping in ICC10. For people who aren't strict 10 man raiders people often had a good mix of 245 gear from ToC 25 man/badges which is equivalent to heroic gear from the previous tier. I'd expect someone wearing Heroic gear from the previous tier to breeze through the normal difficulty pretty quickly based on their skill and gear level. You tune a normal instance for heroic gear from the previous tier or you make doing heroics mandatory, which isn't Blizzards plan. This won't be the case in Cataclysm. The only way to heroic gear from the previous tier will be to actually do heroic mode in that tier.
3) Cherry picking the best/most dedicated players for 10 man. With separate lock out timers many guilds could and somewhat naturally did end up with their best geared and most skilled raiders in their 10 man raids, especially the ones that progressed much farther than the 25 man raid did. It was also much easier, for us anyway, to get a smaller group to agree to extend a lock out and spend an evening banging on a new boss than a 25 man raid.
I'm sure there are other things I haven't even thought of yet.
LittleHamster Nov 9th 2010 4:34AM
In the new system, you'll be able to cherry pick and gear up your 10 best/most dedicated raiders in a 25man raid, and doing your progression in 10. It'd be worse than the wrath dual raid size. Only a few guilds will be able to survive this loot council system and effective to compete. My guild is a casual raiding guild and on the server 2nd/3rd ranking. We are already saying we'll be even further behind our server 1st guild because our raiders aren't the type to put up with a loot council system.
Colleen Nov 8th 2010 2:58PM
Okay, I'm still not clear on this. Justice Points are what we earn right now, what type of points will we earn at 85, and when we start to buy point gear (what we used to called badge gear) will it come from justice points or some other points we are making later on? It seems totally ridiculous that we would be able to farm Justice Points right now and use them to buy level 85 gear eventually. Wouldn't we just play old dungeons if that was the case? I'd assume they will do the same thing with Cata that they did with every other expansion that used badges: there will be different points for different tiers. Amiright?
Saeadame Nov 8th 2010 3:21PM
The 'current tier' points (what Frost emblems were for Tier 10) will be called Valor points. Justice points will be an amalgamation of any previous tiers. So, instead of having to have a bunch of different emblems, you'll be able to use just justice points (old stuff) and valor points (new stuff).
When a new tier comes out, the previous valor points will become justice points, and you can start accumulating valor points for the new tier.
Grombrindal Nov 8th 2010 3:24PM
From my understanding there are only ever 2 tiers of points, the current raid will drop Valor points (I think that's the name) while the old tier and heroics will drop justice points. Justice points can buy old tier stuff (Like the triumph badges of pre 4.0.1) while Valor points buy the current tier stuff (like frost badges of pre 4.0.1).
The justice points that we have today will indeed be able to buy level 85 stuff... but from what I understand it's only blues and such and not many (if any) epics to be had, so it's actually lower tier than the old school heroism badges... also at the current cap (4k) i think we're only going to be able to buy at most 2 pieces....
Grom
TimR Nov 8th 2010 3:28PM
There are two tiers of points: Justice and Valor.
Valor is what you earn in the most advanced raid tier, and is used to buy the most advanced gear. Valor points have a weekly cap.
Justice Points are what we are currently earning, and can be used to buy gear at a level beneath the most advanced. Justice can be used to buy blue 85 gear as soon as you hit 85.
Jeremy Nov 8th 2010 3:41PM
Justice Points will be earned through Cata Heroics (my understanding is that Valor points will only be given for the daily Heroic like frosts were prior to 4.01 ) to purchase blue quality items to either get into heroics (the JP we are farming now) or used on gear (blue quality) to start the first tier of raiding when Cata hits. Valor Points will be earned in raids which then can be used on filler epics that people haven't gotten in raids. When T11 content is finished and T12 content comes out, the items previiously purchased with Valor points will be made available to purchase with Justice points. Justice points will basically be used for the starter/previous tier items instead of introducing a new point system per new raid content.
Homeschool Nov 8th 2010 3:05PM
@Blacksen - If two of the same can't drop, that makes it more likely to see a given item on 25, since (RNG being what it is) there's always going to be that one single-spec item that drops EVERY week, leaving only one other item on 10 but four on 25.
As for competition, that part is true. Your odds of WINNING it are lower, since there's more likely to be someone else who wants it. However, if you're more likely to see it, it sort of balances out, right?
If you've got a DKP-system going, 25 will be the way to go - since you're more likely to see the item sooner, and all you have to worry about is having the most to spend. For a random roll, it probably evens out. But then, that's "random" for you.