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11-08-2010 @ 2:13PM
10s really seem like the way to go based on this information, but as an aside, I've been in very few progressive 10 man groups where it was possible to carry one or two (or more) people - I feel like 25s are much more forgiving of mistakes in that respect and losing a person in a 25 to something silly is more easily covered than it is in a 10.
11-08-2010 @ 2:50PM
This here is the one of the main ways 25s will have an advantage over 10s. While it *is* harder to get 25 people to follow instructions, it's also not as big of an impact of 1/25 screws up and dies (unless it's a tank). Note I'm not trying to say this means 25s will be easier overall, I'm just saying it contributes to evening the playing field.In a lot of discussions I've had with 25-manners who are angry about the issue, the common theme is that they cannot imagine how a 25-man could be easier. All of them cite examples like 25-man LK versus 10-man LK. None of them seem to want to consider the fact that in Wrath, 25-mans were balanced to be less forgiving. We simply don't know how 25-mans are going to balanced in Cataclysm in relation to 10-mans.This is also the reason I like 10-mans better. Call me a little selfish, but whenever I find myself in a 25-man I feel like I'm participating in a massive spam fest, and that I could run over and jump off the cliff and no one would know the difference.My personal contribution to a 10-man is much greater. I feel like I'm actually part of a team working together, and not a faceless member of an army that's indistinguishable from the others.
11-08-2010 @ 3:00PM
I agree that this should be put in the 25man 'pro' list. Our 25man raid guild always had a couple not-quite-pro performers that we liked playing with because of their personality as opposed to the button pressing skill. It worked out okay in the larger raids, but when you start decreasing the number of people, each person takes on an increasing larger responsibility for wins and losses.My guild is planning on switching from 25s to two 10s, mostly due to the 'cat herding' issues, and neither of the raid leaders wants to take on our 'special' raiders. I, for one, am going to miss the 25mans. 10mans were always just a way to kick back and relax on a Friday, while the 'real' raids were on other nights.
11-08-2010 @ 3:27PM
@ Finnicks. Many of the most tightly tuned encounters have mechanics where a single player can wipe the raid. In a 10 player environment, that wipe risk goes down dramatically if you are cutting out the "special raiders" from your otherwise 25 man raid. They are going to have to do more mechanics where players have to do something, rather than avoid something to make 10 mans harder. 10 man netherspite needed 3 players to coordinate beams. A 25 man netherspite might take 4-5 players and still be easier. Imagine the same setup on Mags with the box pushing. 10 man could also be harder, with the distance of the boxes, and the lack of other players to take over in time if some one dies. Then again, 3 people simultaneously doing something is easier than 5.
11-08-2010 @ 4:26PM
our guild is currently planing on running bothblizzard are suposed to be doing several smaller raids per tier - instead of one like naxx/uld/icc areimagine if we'd had ToC and a different 6 boss one at the same timeyou then do one on 25 man, and one on 10, each week - and alternatewith our current 3 25 man nights and 2 ten (broken by flexible raidlocks though)that works out perfectly
11-08-2010 @ 5:08PM
While it's not that of a big issue 1 dps screwing up in 25 mans, I usually find the larger the non-pro raids, the lesser is the sense of responsability.There is a individual mentality of "I have room to screw up, so I'm not going to pay that much of attention" in 25 mans vs "I cannot screw up, I'm paying attention" in 10 mans.In the end you have a non-pro 25 man working at 75% efficiency, and a non-pro 10 man doing 90% of optimal game playing. That way, 10 mans will reach their objective faster than 25 mans.This will also lead to attrition between players doing their jobs against those consistently performing badly "because they can".
11-08-2010 @ 5:23PM
Yeah, 25's are easier for carrying not-so-good players... But why do you WANT to carry not-so-good players?That's why, for me, this is another PRO-10-man difference. Oh what's that? You stand in the fire, or your DPS/HPS is inexplicably low? Sorry, can't afford to keep you in this raid. You can feel free to join our alt runs later in the week!
11-08-2010 @ 6:44PM
I have seen more than just a few people perform better in 10mans than 25mans, simply because they know they are more important and have to perform better than in 25s. That bit of extra pressure forces most people to play better, most likely because they concentrate a bit harder at what they are doing, instead of just facerolling a dps rotation.
11-08-2010 @ 7:20PM
You're forgetting that the most challenging and rewarding fights ever seen have had 0 room for error in the 25man setting - one person dying typically meant a wipe. You can trace this through several patch cycles, from heroic Lich King to Firefigther to Yogg-0 to M'uru to Archimonde - if one person makes a mistake, the raid dies.So yes, 1 person dying in 10man means you lose 10% of your raid, while 1 person dying in 25man means you lose 4% of your raid. But what you're ignoring are the consequences. If a fight demands 100%, you cannot make a single mistake. It's in this way that 25mans are harder than 10mans.
11-08-2010 @ 8:22PM
@ AnyeI did not say anyone would want to. I was merely pointing out it was more easily done.
11-08-2010 @ 8:25PM
@ BlacksenPlease don't put words in my mouth. I was not ignoring anything - I was merely stating 25s were "more" forgiving, not 100% forgiving of every error that could possibly occur.
11-08-2010 @ 11:03PM
"You're forgetting that the most challenging and rewarding fights ever seen have had 0 room for error in the 25man setting - one person dying typically meant a wipe. So yes, 1 person dying in 10man means you lose 10% of your raid, while 1 person dying in 25man means you lose 4% of your raid."@Blacksen I agree with him here. In addition, some raid mechanics favor 10 while some favor 25. Blizzard can opt to make a pseudo-hard mode for the easier encounter to balance it with the harder one. For example, this "hard" mode will punish the raid for letting a raid member die whether it be a 10/25 version. It will require some iteration on the part of Blizzard but hey, that's why they're the raid designers and we're the raiders. They might not be able to nail it 100% all the time, but a close 90% is fine.10 man too easy you say? Make it so that a death almost certainly a wipe. 25s has 3x battle rezzes! That's a good balance I think.
11-09-2010 @ 11:48AM
OS-3D-10m ... originally that was much much harder then the 25 man version by a HUGE margin. So yes, Blizzard can make 10's harder then 25's. People seem to conveniently forget that 10's now are tuned easier then 25's cause they drop a lessor tier of gear.Consider 10m hard modes vs 25m normal mode. Which is easier? the 25 man normal without a doubt.If the difficulty is _exactly_ the same the question will come down to "how hard is the content". If the content is silly easy, then 10 mans will be the way to go. If the content is hard, as it should be, then 25 mans will be the way to go.Why? cause in 10's individual performance is more crucial then in 25's. In 25's, there are more players around to carry your sorry ass ergo making success more likely. In a 25, I really don't care that 3 window lickers are eating dirt ... in a 10, having just one of my healers down makes a big difference.
11-09-2010 @ 12:26PM
I think 10 man raids will be dominant, and I think we're seeing this now with Icecrown Citadel.As a person with not a lot of time to raid and as a member of a small guild, my raiding options are either pugging ICC 25 for a shot at better loot, pugging ICC 10, or raiding ICC 10 with my guild. Ideally, I would raid ICC 10 with my guild, and if I have time, pug ICC 25.Since we can't do this anymore, though, my ICC lockouts are going to the guild ICC 10, and this is why: even if players are not necessarily the best, having a consistent team that progresses together will get farther into an instance than a pug of people who have not progressed. Sure, GDKP raids will blow them out of the water, but those folks have by and large finished progression. Folks who are learning the content de novo will benefit more from dedication and accountability on the part of their fellow raiders, and it's much easier to organize a group of 10 for a regular effort.I suppose it's different if you have the time to devote multiple entire evenings to raiding. My life, alas(?), does not permit for this.
11-10-2010 @ 5:17PM
@BlacksenAnd YOU'RE forgetting that throughout Wrath of the Lich King, 25-man encounters were SPECIFICALLY TUNED TO BE HARDER.This seems to be 25-manners favorite line... how much harder 25s were in Wrath. THEY WERE DESIGNED to be harder. They weren't harder "because they required 25 people". They were harder because Blizzard decided that 25-mans would be harder, and tuned them that way.Blizzard isn't taking that line anymore. They are going to specifically design both versions to be of roughly equal difficulty. The only way they can do that is to make the output requirements equal. 10-man raids have 5 DPS (usually), so they balance a DPS race to require (say) 50,000 DPS for the first tier of raiding. 25-man raid usually has 17 DPS, so they balance the same DPS race to require 170,000 DPS.10-man raid: 1 DPS screws up and dies halfway through. 10,000 DPS lost. 20% of total output. You're probably going to hit enrage around 10%. The other 4 DPS will have a very hard time making up for the difference, even if they push very hard. Do you commonly find is easy to ramp up your normal output by 20% over a long period?25-man raid: 1 DPS screws up and dies halfway through. 10,000 DPS lost. 6% of total output lost. Every other DPSer only has to push themselves 6% harder to make up the loss. The raid still has a chance. Even if 2 people die, you've barely incurred half the loss that a 10-man would suffer from so much as 1 death.That's what we are saying.And for the love of God, stop touting the "omgz 1 death in H 25-man LK wuz wipez" because like I said, it was specifically designed to be harder than 10-man. You can't compare that to Cata, where the design approach is completely different.
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