Drama Mamas: Family or fun?
Drama Mamas Lisa Poisso and Robin Torres are experienced gamers and real-life mamas -- and just as we don't want our precious babies to be the ones kicking and wailing on the floor of the checkout lane next to the candy, neither do we want you to become known as That Guy on your realm.
The family that plays together, stays together ... or do they? Family playstyles are not always compatible, as The Groom discovers.
Drama Mama Lisa: How do you want to play this game, The Groom? And what about your fiancée? One of the first discoveries you'll soon be making as a married couple is that no matter how inextricably entwined your lives and interests may be, there will always remain things that are (and should be) individual and separate in both marriages and families.
It sounds to me as if you recognize where your playstyles and in-game goals differ. Some of that may be based on your fiancée's limited experience of the game, true, but the fact that you see these differences and seem interested in accommodating them is a good thing.
So here are our facts:
I know you feel that leaving would mean "abandoning" your brothers. Still, it doesn't sound as if the guild will implode without you, and your brothers' cold-shoulder attitudes in game don't make it sound as if the personal interaction is such a big draw.
Here's where you have to suck it up and play this like a man, not a brother: Thank them for all their help and advice and let them know that you and your fiancée have decided to play more casually than the guild does. Don't make apologies; none are needed. Just as you and your new wife don't need to move in next door to your brothers to show them you still care, neither do you have to play in the same guild (or realm; maybe a little virtual distance might also make things feel more comfortable?) in World of Warcraft.
Talk with your fiancée and see if she's interested in hooking up with a less critical raiding group. If she is, start running what pickup raids you can while you search for a more compatible guild home. If not, you may want to create another character to play with her as a team; with Cataclysm right around the corner, you've got a fabulous opportunity to make a fresh start, either singly or as a duo. In fact, a fresh start might provide a relatively friction-free exit from your current situation in your brothers' guild. Good luck in whatever you choose!
Drama Mama Robin: The Groom, when reading your letter, there were a few things that made me cheer and a few things that didn't.
Regardless of your raiding decision, when Cataclysm launches, create another duo with The Bride and enjoy your time leveling through the shattered world together. It was the right thing to do then, and it's the right thing to do now and forever. Also, consider me envious, because The Spousal Unit has still refused to duo with me in WoW. /sadface Maybe Deathwing will change that for us, too.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas@wow.com.
The family that plays together, stays together ... or do they? Family playstyles are not always compatible, as The Groom discovers.
Dear Drama Mamas,
I have been engaged to my fiancée for more than a year now. Since last June or July, we have been playing WoW together. I have been an experienced Warcraft player since Warcraft 3 -- knowing the ins and outs of lore, the game, etc. Her only experience was being powerleveled previously by friends who just needed an extra person -- so not much experience sitting down and learning the game. We decided to level up fresh characters together, and it was wonderful teaming up together, with her being a female draenei warrior and I a human paladin. It seemed like a good teamwork-building exercise for us as a couple.
Going on in the background, my two brothers took over and began maintaining a serious raiding guild. They've been doing serious raiding with their level 80s and gearing up for ICC and Ruby Sanctum. Obviously, my fiancée and I were not high enough level to participate but we were invited to the guild as their loving brother and his soon-to-be wife -- who is cool enough to play WoW with (many guys cannot seem to find a girl who will willingly participate in their leisure activities, fantasy sports or what-not).
Once we hit level 80, everything changed between my fiancée, me, my brothers and their guild. My brothers and other guildies were constantly telling us what we have been doing wrong with our characters, including not gemming correctly. They even accused us for not knowing our rotations at all, which is a slap in the face for anyone who has been learning their character through the 79 levels of struggle.
Receiving this kind of criticism every time we sat down with the guild to do a raid or dungeon because we were not high enough on their DPS charts for their liking began to take a negative toll on us. My fiancée's confidence in herself as a player seriously dropped and she worried if she was even good enough to do ICC or will she be chewed out again? I tried to reassure her, saying that my brothers are just too into the game or they just are not as good socially with a game like this. Sometimes you play with jerks in the game. I even pointed out that they think I needed armor penetration for my paladin, which is proof that they did not know our characters as much as they thought. But to no avail, she took a step back and now focuses on things other than playing with me in game.
I decided to take some sort of action with this. I petitioned my eldest brother, who is also the GM, and brought this to his attention. He dealt with it as a GM instead of talking to me as a brother, saying they are looking out for common mistakes that they made and do not want us repeating. They want our skills to be good enough to warrant us being able to participate with them. He completely ignored the fact that they were killing the game for me and my future bride.
Thus, my fiancée barely plays now. It will probably change with Cataclysm coming out soon. But as for me, I have become the highest melee DPS in the guild from practice and studying on my own, not from guild help. I am usually on top of the DPS charts with my retribution paladin in ICC heroics. Heck, I was surprised I pulled aggro away from my brothers (both of them being 6k GearScore main tanks) mid-fight on heroic Sindragosa just by sheer damage. But I still get the cold attitude from my brothers during game time and I am seriously contemplating leaving the guild entirely for the lack of enjoyment. But should I abandon my brothers? I could use some help, Drama Mamas.
Sincerely,
The Groom
It sounds to me as if you recognize where your playstyles and in-game goals differ. Some of that may be based on your fiancée's limited experience of the game, true, but the fact that you see these differences and seem interested in accommodating them is a good thing.
So here are our facts:
- Your fiancée didn't enjoy the style of the guild your brothers are running.
- You yourself don't seem to appreciate this guild style, either.
- You do seem to be quite interested in raiding as a whole.
- Your relationship with your brothers isn't in and of itself proving to be the basis of an enjoyable gaming experience.
I know you feel that leaving would mean "abandoning" your brothers. Still, it doesn't sound as if the guild will implode without you, and your brothers' cold-shoulder attitudes in game don't make it sound as if the personal interaction is such a big draw.
Here's where you have to suck it up and play this like a man, not a brother: Thank them for all their help and advice and let them know that you and your fiancée have decided to play more casually than the guild does. Don't make apologies; none are needed. Just as you and your new wife don't need to move in next door to your brothers to show them you still care, neither do you have to play in the same guild (or realm; maybe a little virtual distance might also make things feel more comfortable?) in World of Warcraft.
Talk with your fiancée and see if she's interested in hooking up with a less critical raiding group. If she is, start running what pickup raids you can while you search for a more compatible guild home. If not, you may want to create another character to play with her as a team; with Cataclysm right around the corner, you've got a fabulous opportunity to make a fresh start, either singly or as a duo. In fact, a fresh start might provide a relatively friction-free exit from your current situation in your brothers' guild. Good luck in whatever you choose!
- Yay for the duo! You and your bride-to-be, leveling together, having fun, enjoying the game and each other -- that's how it is done, sir.
- Yay for appreciating your fiancée! Just as many gamers have a hard time finding significant others who want to share their activities, many significant others are not appreciated for their efforts.
- Yay for trying to make it work with your entire family! You tried to play with your fiancée and it worked. You tried to play all together and it didn't. Still, the attempt is worth it.
- Boo for thinking you couldn't learn anything from your experienced guildies. Sure, they may not have worded it diplomatically, but the game changes at 80. What you did from 1 to 79 with The Bride is not the same thing as working with 9 to 24 other people in a raid. The humility I recommended for Raider Girl works for both genders.
- Boo for thinking that your brothers should make exceptions to rules and policies for family. They seem to have the same standards and advice for the rest of their guild.
- Yay for The Bride taking control of her fun! Leisure time is too precious to spend being miserable.
Regardless of your raiding decision, when Cataclysm launches, create another duo with The Bride and enjoy your time leveling through the shattered world together. It was the right thing to do then, and it's the right thing to do now and forever. Also, consider me envious, because The Spousal Unit has still refused to duo with me in WoW. /sadface Maybe Deathwing will change that for us, too.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Duulket Nov 12th 2010 3:03PM
Where did you find that picture, Robin?
Robin Torres Nov 12th 2010 3:10PM
The Commons. Click on it and it tells the story.
I love that they all look overwhelmed and interested in different directions.
Cephas Nov 12th 2010 3:11PM
Just click the picture.
Duulket Nov 12th 2010 3:12PM
They look overwhelmed to me too but they also look like they would rather be at home playing under the big oak tree.
Matthew Nov 12th 2010 3:52PM
I think that boy needs to find a resto druid to relieve himself on.
Colleen Nov 12th 2010 5:27PM
Yup, that's when families had to use the curtains to make dresses for the young ones who constantly outgrow their clothes. Super cute, I love how you can tell it's all made from the same piece of fabric. The Depression was not an easy time
Samuel Reese Nov 12th 2010 3:13PM
If there's one thing I've learned from playing WoW, it's that trying to play with family and even my close friends tends to add unnecessary stress to the relationships I have with them. Countless times I would join guilds by their recommendation and feel pressured to stay regardless of how I felt about the guild's demeanor.
YMMV as far as that is concerned of course, but I use WoW as a release FROM the tensions and pressure of everyday life; playing with my family/friends compounded it by dragging my IRL drama into game, and game drama into my RL.
Mugutu Nov 12th 2010 3:16PM
Sounds to me like The Groom was expecting loyalty to kin over responsibility to a serious raiding guild. Hate to be callous, but the guild wouldn't have said anything about your rotations or gemming if they weren't trying to progress and felt you guys were holding them back. They were trying to help themselves by helping you two.
If you're not enjoying it, leave. Simple as that.
Claire Nov 12th 2010 4:20PM
To me, the issue is how they talked to them about the performance issues. Which we don't really know. But telling someone, "Your gemming is all wrong and you don't know your rotation" is rather ... brusque. Verging on rude. Much better to start out by saying, "Hey, I noticed your DPS is lagging a bit. Do you want some tips?" But we often skip the manners with family members.
g2g591 Nov 12th 2010 5:53PM
hey, heres a part of the original letter that I think everyones missing ". I even pointed out that they think I needed armor penetration for my paladin, which is proof that they did not know our characters as much as they thought"
I think the writers issue is not so much with advice.... but with BAD advice
Gendou Nov 12th 2010 6:03PM
Keep in mind that we're hearing this from the obviously very biased Groom.
We have no clue HOW these corrections were phrased. We have no idea how thin-skinned the Bride and Groom are.
We once had a feral druid who raided with us who was very skilled but very thin-skinned. To the point that even joking about druids (for example, joking with our resto druid that he was bottom of the damage meters) would make her drop raid without a word. We did our best to build up her confidence, and we started to be very careful about saying anything around her that she might possibly take negatively. It was painful and not good for raid morale. Eventually she left the guild one night without saying anything to anyone, and honestly I think that was best for everyone.
And we don't know who was giving bad advice. If one hunter, one time said, "maybe you need armor pen? I use it on my warrior" or something stupid, that's different from everyone in the guild pushing the pally to gem armor pen.
So we don't know what was said by whom or when. We do know that Groom - by his own admission - can't take criticism from anyone in his guild and expects special treatment because he is related to the GM. Both of those, regardless of anything else we do or do not know, are unacceptable behaviors for a member of a serious raiding guild.
His best bet is to do everyone involved a huge favor and leave the guild.
vocenoctum Nov 12th 2010 6:04PM
See, I think that they were only brought into the guild because they were brother/wife, so why should they suddenly be treated like Random Apprentice? Should they be coddled? I'd say no, but the line isn't (IMO) simply "hey, you're in the guild, you need to perform to our raid level or be berated".
"Hey, if you want to raid, we need you guys to carry your weight, if not, we can still run heroics and have fun with you!" would be more how I think the situation should have went down.
But, yeah, this letter has a certain hurt-feeling bias to it, so it's hard to tell how much weight to give what.
Mugutu Nov 12th 2010 6:07PM
@g2g591 - Depending on the time period, those people could have been right. Armor penetration became decent for ret once they had 2-piece T10 with the Divine Storm cooldown reset.
vinniedcleaner Nov 12th 2010 6:32PM
"There's nothing necessarily "wrong" with this guild or your brothers' approach..."
I have to totally disagree. Standing on the sidelines yelling at someone that "they're doing it wrong" is not going to help, at all, ever. Show, don't tell (or yell). By his own admission, Groom figured it out on his own, in spite of his elitist brothers. I think his next step would be to sit down with his bride and look at information on her class and then take her over to some training dummies and let her practice her rotations and such.
Anye Nov 12th 2010 6:41PM
I don't think that he was expecting family loyalty so much as he expected a little more welcoming of an atmosphere. Not just because they're family, but because they extended an early invite. A "serious" raiding guild (or at least a guild that takes itself this seriously) probably shouldn't be sending /ginvites to sub-80s in the first place. If they do so for recruiting purposes, they should start evaluating the lowbies sooner rather than later, so that bad habits aren't learned in the first place.
I call bait-and-switch.
Groom, I recommend leaving the guild, at least on these toons. Just explain, and your brothers should be able to understand that you leveled these toons to play together, and if your wife isn't enjoying the "hardcore playstyle" (try not to inadvertently attack the guild) then you need to go elsewhere. If time permits, offer as a consolation to level/transfer another toon to continue to raid with them, or suggest that you and your wife might be willing to raid with them in more relaxed "alt runs" in the future.
As someone who has played WoW side-by-side with his wife for four years, I recommend doing whatever you can to make your playtime together as enjoyable as possible. It can become a big time-suck but it's a very rewarding way to spend time together.
bruce Nov 12th 2010 3:26PM
Your articles always cover interesting social questions that pertain to the game. Do you ever get to hear what the outcomes of these dilemmas turns out to be? If they come up in the comments I guess I haven't stuck through enough of the comments to see.
Saltypoison Nov 12th 2010 3:27PM
I REALLY like the fact that the Guild Leader stuck to his guns on his response.
"He dealt with it as a GM instead of talking to me as a brother."
That's exactly as it should have been. Trust me, you may feel slighted, but the GM that makes exceptions is not the GM you want. Equality is the only fair way to lead a group.
Fa110u7 Nov 12th 2010 4:34PM
I agree that equality is the best policy in running a guild.... but.... in my opinion Family deserves a little softer touch when it comes to the face to face. I think that the brothers could have presented their side/view to the groom in a more sensitive loving way. Obviously the outcome and the in game treatment should be the same way as the rest of the guild, but family has a different dynamic that should be observed separate from the guild hierarchy.
Saltypoison Nov 12th 2010 4:44PM
Well, having experienced this dynamic firsthand, I've certainly run into the simple fact that the "softer touch" can be interpreted as lenient, and boundaries get pushed more than is comfortable. In that leadership role, it gets very tricky, if not impossible to play both sides. While others may (and do I'm sure) pull it off much better, I've found much more success in falling back to the GM attitude rather than the family attitude.
Oriflame Nov 12th 2010 6:04PM
You can be firm, and apply the same rules without being a jerk in a one on one private conversation with your sibling you know. I don't really disagree with the point you're making... just saying that being a jerk is decoupled from being a impartial GM.