Drama Mamas: Family or fun?
Drama Mamas Lisa Poisso and Robin Torres are experienced gamers and real-life mamas -- and just as we don't want our precious babies to be the ones kicking and wailing on the floor of the checkout lane next to the candy, neither do we want you to become known as That Guy on your realm.
The family that plays together, stays together ... or do they? Family playstyles are not always compatible, as The Groom discovers.
Drama Mama Lisa: How do you want to play this game, The Groom? And what about your fiancée? One of the first discoveries you'll soon be making as a married couple is that no matter how inextricably entwined your lives and interests may be, there will always remain things that are (and should be) individual and separate in both marriages and families.
It sounds to me as if you recognize where your playstyles and in-game goals differ. Some of that may be based on your fiancée's limited experience of the game, true, but the fact that you see these differences and seem interested in accommodating them is a good thing.
So here are our facts:
I know you feel that leaving would mean "abandoning" your brothers. Still, it doesn't sound as if the guild will implode without you, and your brothers' cold-shoulder attitudes in game don't make it sound as if the personal interaction is such a big draw.
Here's where you have to suck it up and play this like a man, not a brother: Thank them for all their help and advice and let them know that you and your fiancée have decided to play more casually than the guild does. Don't make apologies; none are needed. Just as you and your new wife don't need to move in next door to your brothers to show them you still care, neither do you have to play in the same guild (or realm; maybe a little virtual distance might also make things feel more comfortable?) in World of Warcraft.
Talk with your fiancée and see if she's interested in hooking up with a less critical raiding group. If she is, start running what pickup raids you can while you search for a more compatible guild home. If not, you may want to create another character to play with her as a team; with Cataclysm right around the corner, you've got a fabulous opportunity to make a fresh start, either singly or as a duo. In fact, a fresh start might provide a relatively friction-free exit from your current situation in your brothers' guild. Good luck in whatever you choose!
Drama Mama Robin: The Groom, when reading your letter, there were a few things that made me cheer and a few things that didn't.
Regardless of your raiding decision, when Cataclysm launches, create another duo with The Bride and enjoy your time leveling through the shattered world together. It was the right thing to do then, and it's the right thing to do now and forever. Also, consider me envious, because The Spousal Unit has still refused to duo with me in WoW. /sadface Maybe Deathwing will change that for us, too.
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at DramaMamas@wow.com.
The family that plays together, stays together ... or do they? Family playstyles are not always compatible, as The Groom discovers.
Dear Drama Mamas,
I have been engaged to my fiancée for more than a year now. Since last June or July, we have been playing WoW together. I have been an experienced Warcraft player since Warcraft 3 -- knowing the ins and outs of lore, the game, etc. Her only experience was being powerleveled previously by friends who just needed an extra person -- so not much experience sitting down and learning the game. We decided to level up fresh characters together, and it was wonderful teaming up together, with her being a female draenei warrior and I a human paladin. It seemed like a good teamwork-building exercise for us as a couple.
Going on in the background, my two brothers took over and began maintaining a serious raiding guild. They've been doing serious raiding with their level 80s and gearing up for ICC and Ruby Sanctum. Obviously, my fiancée and I were not high enough level to participate but we were invited to the guild as their loving brother and his soon-to-be wife -- who is cool enough to play WoW with (many guys cannot seem to find a girl who will willingly participate in their leisure activities, fantasy sports or what-not).
Once we hit level 80, everything changed between my fiancée, me, my brothers and their guild. My brothers and other guildies were constantly telling us what we have been doing wrong with our characters, including not gemming correctly. They even accused us for not knowing our rotations at all, which is a slap in the face for anyone who has been learning their character through the 79 levels of struggle.
Receiving this kind of criticism every time we sat down with the guild to do a raid or dungeon because we were not high enough on their DPS charts for their liking began to take a negative toll on us. My fiancée's confidence in herself as a player seriously dropped and she worried if she was even good enough to do ICC or will she be chewed out again? I tried to reassure her, saying that my brothers are just too into the game or they just are not as good socially with a game like this. Sometimes you play with jerks in the game. I even pointed out that they think I needed armor penetration for my paladin, which is proof that they did not know our characters as much as they thought. But to no avail, she took a step back and now focuses on things other than playing with me in game.
I decided to take some sort of action with this. I petitioned my eldest brother, who is also the GM, and brought this to his attention. He dealt with it as a GM instead of talking to me as a brother, saying they are looking out for common mistakes that they made and do not want us repeating. They want our skills to be good enough to warrant us being able to participate with them. He completely ignored the fact that they were killing the game for me and my future bride.
Thus, my fiancée barely plays now. It will probably change with Cataclysm coming out soon. But as for me, I have become the highest melee DPS in the guild from practice and studying on my own, not from guild help. I am usually on top of the DPS charts with my retribution paladin in ICC heroics. Heck, I was surprised I pulled aggro away from my brothers (both of them being 6k GearScore main tanks) mid-fight on heroic Sindragosa just by sheer damage. But I still get the cold attitude from my brothers during game time and I am seriously contemplating leaving the guild entirely for the lack of enjoyment. But should I abandon my brothers? I could use some help, Drama Mamas.
Sincerely,
The Groom
It sounds to me as if you recognize where your playstyles and in-game goals differ. Some of that may be based on your fiancée's limited experience of the game, true, but the fact that you see these differences and seem interested in accommodating them is a good thing.
So here are our facts:
- Your fiancée didn't enjoy the style of the guild your brothers are running.
- You yourself don't seem to appreciate this guild style, either.
- You do seem to be quite interested in raiding as a whole.
- Your relationship with your brothers isn't in and of itself proving to be the basis of an enjoyable gaming experience.
I know you feel that leaving would mean "abandoning" your brothers. Still, it doesn't sound as if the guild will implode without you, and your brothers' cold-shoulder attitudes in game don't make it sound as if the personal interaction is such a big draw.
Here's where you have to suck it up and play this like a man, not a brother: Thank them for all their help and advice and let them know that you and your fiancée have decided to play more casually than the guild does. Don't make apologies; none are needed. Just as you and your new wife don't need to move in next door to your brothers to show them you still care, neither do you have to play in the same guild (or realm; maybe a little virtual distance might also make things feel more comfortable?) in World of Warcraft.
Talk with your fiancée and see if she's interested in hooking up with a less critical raiding group. If she is, start running what pickup raids you can while you search for a more compatible guild home. If not, you may want to create another character to play with her as a team; with Cataclysm right around the corner, you've got a fabulous opportunity to make a fresh start, either singly or as a duo. In fact, a fresh start might provide a relatively friction-free exit from your current situation in your brothers' guild. Good luck in whatever you choose!
- Yay for the duo! You and your bride-to-be, leveling together, having fun, enjoying the game and each other -- that's how it is done, sir.
- Yay for appreciating your fiancée! Just as many gamers have a hard time finding significant others who want to share their activities, many significant others are not appreciated for their efforts.
- Yay for trying to make it work with your entire family! You tried to play with your fiancée and it worked. You tried to play all together and it didn't. Still, the attempt is worth it.
- Boo for thinking you couldn't learn anything from your experienced guildies. Sure, they may not have worded it diplomatically, but the game changes at 80. What you did from 1 to 79 with The Bride is not the same thing as working with 9 to 24 other people in a raid. The humility I recommended for Raider Girl works for both genders.
- Boo for thinking that your brothers should make exceptions to rules and policies for family. They seem to have the same standards and advice for the rest of their guild.
- Yay for The Bride taking control of her fun! Leisure time is too precious to spend being miserable.
Regardless of your raiding decision, when Cataclysm launches, create another duo with The Bride and enjoy your time leveling through the shattered world together. It was the right thing to do then, and it's the right thing to do now and forever. Also, consider me envious, because The Spousal Unit has still refused to duo with me in WoW. /sadface Maybe Deathwing will change that for us, too.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news






Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Aruhgulah Nov 12th 2010 8:05PM
This, oh totally this. I've read through the responses here, and I'm appalled that folks (and Robin) are forgetting something basic:
It's not just a game guild issue. You're talking family, and close family at that. Handling family as if they were "just anyone else" is asking for major trouble within the family, period. And the family will outlast the game. Is it really worth a bunch of pixels to ruin family relationships?
Groom didn't strike ME as asking for special treatment, but rather for common FAMILY courtesy from his brothers to his wife. Because of the attitude of the brothers, the wife's game enjoyment has been ruined -- that's the issue here, not whether or not Groom & Bride should be taking the advice.
Without knowing the full specifics, it IS possible that the Guild-owner brothers really DIDN'T have any idea what they were talking about in terms of Groom & Bride's classes (and the Armor Penetration bit for a pally is a huge giveaway -- next they'll be saying pally PVE tanks need to stack Resilience). I've run into THAT before, where a Guild Leader or Guild "hardcore" players tries to force their advice on a guildie, and their advice is all wrong.
Gendou Nov 12th 2010 5:53PM
( rant )
I read that message, and all I got from it was, "I want the guild that my brothers run to shut up and carry me and my fiancee because I'm related to them."
Your brothers handled things exactly right. If they running, in your words, 'a serious raiding guild,' they can't afford to have slackers who aren't willing to accept criticism or take responsibility for their own performance.
Your claims about being "top DPS in heroics" and "pulling aggro off the tank on Sindragosa" ring hollow, since neither one of those is terribly hard to do, especially post 4.0.1 where tanks have significantly less threat to throw around - especially on fights where the tanks have to switch out or stop attacking like on Sindragosa. If you pull threat, that's a sign you don't know when to pull back - another sign you don't know you're doing.
Seriously, you're lucky they didn't just kick you for being terrible and holding back progression. Instead, they try to help you with your lack of skill and knowledge and you take it as 'a slap in the face.' Wow. Just wow.
Stop whining, man up and accept criticism, especially if it's coming from basically your entire raid.
Or find another guild that doesn't mind people who don't want to learn proper raiding specs, gearing and rotations.
In short, stop expecting special treatment, stop expecting to be carried, and stop being an asshat.
( /rant )
Bobfish Nov 12th 2010 6:17PM
I may be wrong but the chain of events seem to be this:
1) Groom and gf start new characters together, level up, having fun.
2) At some point they are invited to Groom's brothers 'hardcore' raiding guild, bear in mind the Groom claims to be an experienced WoW player.
3) During that time what isn't clear but my suspicious is, is that they wanted to raid, they weren't drafted in.
4) They weren't very good/or ineffective at that jobs, people either gave them advice or criticised them. Unaware of these standards in such a guild this caused problems.
5) gf left and the Groom is wondering likewise.
I can tell you from personal experience it's no fun being the other guys when you in this situation. I was in a guild that wiped on Putricide 25man for four months because someones brothers, someones girlfriend and someone else's cousin failed to grasp the tactics. Those people were untouchable so they were never held to account, subsequently the guild fell apart.
I think for the sake of the guild yours brothers did the right thing. To use another football analogy, it's like if your dads the coach and your in the team to a decent standard you get treated the same as anyone else because he can't show favouritism. Your brothers ran a hardcore guild you knew that, as an experienced WoW player, your aware of that concept. If you wanted to raid with them then being clueless is going to show up pretty quickly. You shouldn't expect favouritism because your brothers have more to think about then you or your finace's feelings, or you shouldn't have any leverage because of your RL connection.
Families are funny things and can stoke up some pretty intense emotions. If there decent guys leaving there guild shouldn't harm your relationship outside the game. I do believe your right to stick up for your finace and that maybe hardcore raiding isn't for you. Sounds like the leveling you did with her was your most fun time so maybe you should focus on that play style. Plenty of people get to level 80 start raiding and realise it's not for them, it can be a very tiresome experience that saps the fun out of the game. Or maybe you can engage with raiding casually and your finace can come back into it in time.
I do think you were a little naive to think joining a hardcore raiding guild wouldn't require you to be a certain standard but every things a learning experience and best of luck to you in finding your little piece of Azeroth. :)
HunterFromTheStart Nov 12th 2010 7:26PM
Ok, first of all, your gonna have to put your girl before your brothers. Your brothers can be mad at you all they want, but it's your girl who will take care of you when your sick, and down. In my time being married, my family didn't really approve of my choice in spouse. You don't necessarily need to be in the same guild with your brothers to be able to enjoy spending time with them.
Secondly, and I can't beleive Ms Robin didn't pick up on this, While the game does change completely at 80, you should do your own research, because obviously your well intentioned brothers are complete idiots. Imagine Armor penetration on a pally.
Again, Ms Robin, I call you on this.
"I decided to take some sort of action with this. I petitioned my eldest brother, who is also the GM, and brought this to his attention. He dealt with it as a GM instead of talking to me as a brother, saying they are looking out for common mistakes that they made and do not want us repeating. They want our skills to be good enough to warrant us being able to participate with them. He completely ignored the fact that they were killing the game for me and my future bride."
If you consider this to be seeking special treatment, then I am glad I am not related to you. To me, he didn't ask to be included in a raid performing severely limited DPS, nor did he ask that his girl be included without seeking for improvement. He did not ask to be "Carried".
Perhaps I took Ms Robins comments too strongly because of my own experience with my family being dumb about my bride. I mean, Marriage advice from a single person?? But let me be honest, you don't have to play with your brothers if they won't treat you as just that, Family. One does not have the right to get "Carried" just because one is family, but one does deserve special treatment in how one is talked to BY family.
Ashimar Nov 12th 2010 7:59PM
The Groom is kind of a douche. He says he only wants to play with his wife, but apparently only if she's into raiding. So instead of saying, cool you do your thing I'll do mine, he turns it into a big drama fest trying to look like he's defending her honor or something. But he still raids instead of playing with her.
Actions speak louder than words, my friends. So you can only play with her if she wants to do the things you want to do?
Foxfyr Nov 12th 2010 8:09PM
If you decide to finally make the decision that playing with people you like and that communicate in full sentences is more important than raiding cutting edge content, look me up on Eitrigg.
You can still raid (maybe not the hardest of hard modes) with people who's company you enjoy and have fun. You can even get a Kingslayer title if you don't mind not getting all the current hardmodes down.
Dan Nov 12th 2010 9:32PM
@Saltypoison, I totally agree. If his brother is handling it like a GM, then it should be clear that he should handle the situation like a Guild Member instead of a brother. If the guild isn't working for you, leave it.
Lipstick Nov 12th 2010 9:46PM
The thing that struck me most about this article, was the fact that his fiance no longer had confidence in her abilities any more, and it ruined her enjoyment of the game.
I'm in a similar position with my main right now.
I've had a 6k+ gear score since March. (As if gear score matters). I've killed the LK on both 10 and 25. I've done almost all the hardmodes there are in ICC. Many, many people would tell you that I'm a really good healer.
And yet two negative situations with "hardcore" guilds, has left my confidence in myself so shaken that the idea of even applying to another hardcore guild has me rattled. I tried to go back to a more casual, less progressed guild but found the struggles of the guild as a whole on content I've had on farm for 9 months, to be less then enjoyable.
Everyone needs feedback sometimes -- hell, none of us are perfect we all have room to improve. I will be the first to tell anyone that I'm not the best healer that has ever played the game, though until recently I always felt like a very intelligent and skilled one.
But the things people say, the way we treat other players in the game -- it can hurt. It's easy for people to forget that there are other people on the other side of the keyboard sometimes. I think a lot of things could be handled better.
I'm not saying that you should never tell anyone areas to improve in. But there is a way to do it that builds a person up and makes them strive harder in different ways, and there is a way in which tears them down.
I have no enthusiasm for my priest any more. To some degree the people you choose to play with, can ruin the game for you.
tulipblossom Nov 13th 2010 1:39AM
I'm so sorry that bad experiences, such as the ones you described, have left a sour taste in your mouth and stolen some of the desire to play your priest.
It's crazy, but after playing this game now for the last few years, I've realized that there are a lot of socially inept and rude people out there. But, what's worse is that not all of them are simply ignorant of the damage their words and/or actions can cause, but some just don't care. There are people who are fully aware that they're being dbags and they're happy to do so. Whether, it's some sick desire to be prick, because they're having a bad day or they are just trolls who amuse themselves by hurting others. I honestly just don't know.
But, as for the good people who aren't trying to hurt anyone, I think it's not what you say, but how you say it, that matters. Constructive criticism can be fantastic. Everyone can improve their game, just as you said. But, that doesn't mean they deserve to be talked down or to treated poorly. People need to learn to teach, not bark.
Aruhgulah Nov 13th 2010 10:14PM
Lip, as me and my husband have reminded each other when we run into players like that: "Don't let the barstuds get you down."
The benchmarks of a successful group/raid/instance?
1. Did the boss die?
2. Did most folks survive?
Don't give up just because you ran into socially inept jerkwads. Just don't. And because you're a HEALER, you've got a lot of Instant Desirability to many, many guilds.
Lipstick Nov 14th 2010 12:21PM
The idea of playing my priest, when my heart isn't in it -- feels in some way as if I would be insulting her memory. So for now, my priest is retired.
I doubt very much this will be the last I ever see of her. Cataclysm is on the horizon and though I have plans with a friend to level a new character the day may come when I feel the siren call of my holy glitter and magic shields again.
I thank you both for your comments. It's rare I am so open or heartfelt in such a public place.
Cathubodva Nov 12th 2010 10:38PM
Let me put it to you from another perspective The Groom.
I work with my family irl. By work, I mean my father owns the company, my brother is a manger, my brother in law an installer, my sister and her husband do janitorial and my oldest son works helping the installers. There are about 15-20 other employees, but we are a family owned business. I told my mom just yesterday my goal in life is to get my degree so I can get the hell of out of that place. I just want to be able to sit across a dinner table at family events and not loathe the people I am related to because of work crap.
Because we're family , we tend to treat each other different (and not in a good way -.- ) we're short shrift on manners , and frankly we treat total strangers better than we do each other. Thats not to say there isn't a ton of love amongst us, but I think that our vision of our company varies diversely. But lets face it, people tend to treat family differently, have different expectations and handle them differently overall because they know ..family is stuck with you.
Luckily, IRL and WoW do not necessarily hold the same consequences if you just up and leave. Leave the guild. Tell your GM brother than you've decided to move on. Frankly, unless the guild paid for enchants, gems or you got gear from them, you really don't even owe them much more than a cursory notification to the GM that they aren't what you are looking for in a guild.
Life craps on you pretty hard, why let your hobby do it too?
obarthelemy Nov 13th 2010 12:19AM
I'm wondering if there's not a bit of a smokescreen going on: the groom complains about his brothers, but in the end he IS playing with them, and is not complaining about not enjoying it. The bride has moved on, though.
Is not the real problem that the bride is not that interested in the game per se (ie, the mechanics, playing well, raiding top-end content, making efforts to know her class, play it well, learn the fights...), while the groom is ?
Putting the responsibility for that on the brothers is disingenuous. They seem to be running a normal guild, they leadership do seem to leave a bit to be desired, but that's always the case, there seem to be the a bit of sibling rivalry going on, but nothing outside the norm... Nothing terrible. To me, the meaningful and important fact is that the bride chose to not tough it out, because she did not have the motivation for it.
You need to check with her if she's into end-game at all. Maybe try and show her what it entails in terms of tension, doing your homework, taking criticism... My guess is, even if you try and present it nicely to her, she isn't into the endgame, and you need to work out with her something else to do together. If you want to stay in game, probably achievements, most couples in my guild love doing that together, it's very low-pressure. Or, maybe, just do something else entirely, not in-game.
Tsoi Nov 13th 2010 12:56PM
@Dana
Families fight each other for MUCH dumber reasons, not even involving a video game. If my Sister married some guy that got irrationally mad over the stuff I did on the internet, his way of socializing has nothing to do with me, something that happened far before hand that has him acting that way.
That being said, I cannot count the amount of times between raiding, and random instances, how many bad players they were got nasty no matter which way they were told they were doing something wrong, be it in a nice or firm context, just because you were talking to 2 people instead of 1. Which again I'll make the same argument; the way they respond to simple criticism, in any fashion, has NOTHING to do with me. The way they were brought up, socialize with others, and ability to take criticism, was in place FAR before I said to a mage, "You know, you should get the abyssal rune from Reg ToC5 instead of using Sliver of Pure Ice" which somehow lead to him leaving, and his significant other bitch at me for how rude I was (true story).
@Muse
When did I say, "Cut off all contact! Never play with your brothers, it only leads to drama!"? Maybe I should clarify. I meant just because they were his brothers, doesn't mean raiding is going to be better.
However, I don't think you understand that working for a family member is going to be the same in all jobs... it's just not. In that case, affording a family member leniency in certain job positions is a luxury that can't be afforded, and you would need to let them go, and if they love you/you love them, they'll understand you have a livelyhood to maintain. If they can't do that, then they were just using you.
Finally, you are way, way wrong to say humans don't compartmentalize. You never heard of keeping work and pleasure separate? If you asked 100 people who say, love to play golf. Not obsessively, but it's a hobby. Do you think 100% of the people would want to work on a golf course, or do it professionally for a living? Of course not 100%, that'd be stupid.
Gendou Nov 13th 2010 1:51PM
Interesting how every comment that wasn't completely supportive of Groom (whether my spleen-vent-rant or the much more politely-phrased posts questioning the accuracy of what he reported or expressing support for the GM not showing favoritism to his brother) have been mass-voted-down.
Either there are a lot of people out there who want to be carried by a serious raiding guild, or Groom has a lot of friends willing to come and vote for him.
Obsi Nov 13th 2010 9:32PM
Hahahaha I noticed that too. bunch of bleeding hearts IMO :P
Seriously though it's more likely they can relate to how groom is feeling then the other side.
I have to say I liked the way everyone jumped to the "your not having fun, its definitely those elitist jerks who tried helping you fault" approch but noone tried to consider what the raiders are feeling. Every one goes on about how this game is meant to be fun, well those raiders find raiding at a high standered fun why should they have to baby someone just to teach them something they probably had to know to get into the guild in the 1st place? why should they give up their fun for this couple because they are related to the GM? The answer is they shouldn't so stop thinking they should!
The only one at fault here is Groom, you wanted to play with you partner (yea thats sweet w/e) but when your intrests ingame conflicted you ditched her, when she started to withdraw from the game you ignored it. Don't blame your brother for your relationship problems you have been making your own choises from the start.
oh and BTW Robin I agree with your with your reply 100% too bad 90% of the people here think this game is just about THEIR fun and THEIR feelings, but just like in real life you have to find a place where you fit and that might not always be where you want it to be.
Ras Nov 14th 2010 8:35PM
I think its interesting that he never even mentioned anyone else in the guild beyond himself his fiancee and his brothers. If you dont want to learn your class then you have no business being in icc. Even if he is the guilds highest dps (who apparently thinks pulling aggro shows how epic he is) that hardly makes up for a spouse/fiancee bottoming out probably below the tanks dps. Oh and newsflash, everyone else in your guild also did the lvl 1-80 grind as well at least once so stop acting the martyr that you lvled your toon. In short if your fiancee is bad and unwilling to take any constructive criticism she should gtfo.