Officers' Quarters: The great raid-size debate, part 3
by Scott Andrews 
Nov 15th 2010 at 3:00PM
Welcome to the third and final column exploring the various pros and cons of raid size in WoW's upcoming Cataclysm expansion. Before we talk about the final category, let's recap.
In part 1, I examined the various gameplay considerations that come along with the different sizes.
Gameplay
- We can only speculate about relative difficulty.
- 10-man raids offer fewer options for dealing with specific boss abilities and/or adds.
- Position-based abilities are easier to deal with in 10s.
- Player deaths are not as crippling in 25-mans.
- It's easier to cover for someone else's mistake with 25 players.
Logistics
- A 25-man raid requires an intense recruiting effort.
- "Cat herding" is flat-out easier in 10-man raids.
- More raiders mean more attendance issues and technical issues.
- Subbing is easier in a larger raid.
- Scheduling difficulties are easier to manage with more players.
- Loot is easier to distribute in 10-man.
Rewards
- 25-man bosses are worth more valor points.
- Normal 10s offer the same amount of items per player.
- Heroic 25s will drop more items per player than heroic 10s.
- Fewer items will be sharded in 25s.
- Legendary items should be available to both sizes.
- Achievements are equivalent.
Intangibles
- What's more "epic" to you? Many people think that the larger raids have a more epic feel. Bringing more people with you certainly makes it seem like the boss is more powerful and the threat more dire. On the other hand, being able to kill the Lich King with just nine friends means that you and your guildmates must be pretty powerful and threatening in your own right. There's no right answer here, obviously, but everyone seems to have an opinion. I suppose it comes down to whether you want to feel like you're part of an elite army assembled to exterminate an enemy or a small band of adventurers defying the odds.
- 10-man raids place more pressure on individual players. With so few raiders in the group, each individual carries a heavy responsibility. There is pressure to show up night after night with (generally speaking) fewer players available to replace you, especially if you're a tank or healer. During a boss fight, no one can make up for your slack, so you have to push yourself hard every night. Mistakes are more evident and most costly. Some players thrive on this pressure; others eventually let it crush them, leading to faster burnout on content.
- In the past, 25-man kills have been awarded greater prestige. World-first 10-man kills in Wrath were an afterthought. In The Burning Crusade, raids designed for 10 players weren't taken all that seriously. Karazhan was thought of as a more difficult Upper Blackrock Spire, barely a raid at all. Zul'Aman wasn't even really considered progression, given that it was released two patches after the Black Temple and provided loot with a lower item level. We won't know for sure how Cataclysm's progression will be perceived until it happens. If Blizzard manages to balance the difficulty between the two sizes, then it's possible that 10-man raiding won't be dismissed as it has been in the past, especially since you'll no longer be able to outgear it with 25-man item levels. However, I predict that the vast majority of players will still consider 25-man raiding to be the "real" progression path, if you care about such things.
- Loot drama is more likely to happen in a small raid. I'm not sure how many people are going to agree with me here, because the common thinking is just the opposite. Obviously, much of the drama potential depends on the system that you use. In general terms of keeping players happy with their loot situation, though, bigger is better in my experience. For one thing, more loot drops per boss, so players feel like they're more likely to get an item, even if it's statistically untrue (it depends on your system). Also, the distribution of loot tends to be more even in a larger raid. In a 10-man, when you're only getting two drops per boss, those drops can heavily favor a single player's spec, meaning everyone else watches as one person gets item after item uncontested. I've also noticed that players tend to take loot decisions more personally in a smaller environment -- I suspect it's because they're usually only competing with one or two other players for most of their loot. Some players keep a mental tally of who got what, and it's easier to let that sort of thing get you worked up in a smaller group. Finally, some players tend to expect to receive a drop every night when there are only 10 total raiders. All of these factors add up to create fertile ground for seeds of drama to sprout.
- According to jamesdanek, 25-man raiding is way more fun. Whether or not you agree with him, the fun factor is the most important consideration among all of these categories. Raiding is supposed to be fun, and I'm glad that Blizzard is bringing the game toward a future in which fun can be the biggest factor when we make this choice and we're not obligated to run both sizes to stay competitive.
What is the right size for your guild? Let's take a look.
Small but mighty
In my experience, the most important factor for 10-man success is player chemistry. A tight-knit team in which everyone gets along and shares the same expectations is immensely helpful. If you have that already, then you're going to have a lot of fun in Cataclysm. If you don't, I recommend recruiting based more on attitude and personality than other factors. Skill can be learned; gear can be won; but you can't change who someone is.
I recommend the 10-man size for:
- New guilds Build on your 10-man success to help you recruit if you want to expand.
- Guilds that are new to raiding Get your feet wet in 10s first.
- Guilds in which not everyone is interested in raiding Those who don't want to raid will be pressured to do so more often if you're running 25s.
- Guilds with only one to three active officers Leading and supporting 25s would be extremely taxing on them.
- Guilds where the majority of members prefer this size
So you want to supersize it
More so than 10-man, guilds that are successful at 25-man raiding greatly depend on their officers. If you have enough motivated officers who can support the required recruiting, handle more complex loot distribution, and herd more cats, then you are the ideal guild for 25-man raids.
The key word here is "motivated." Larger raids require much more effort from officers. Guilds full of officers who are such in name only will have a difficult time adequately supporting this type of raiding. The one or two officers who are actively working to make those raids happen along with handling all the other tasks of leading a guild will eventually become overwhelmed by these duties.
If you want to raid 25s effectively over the long haul, then you must have a full complement of leaders. In my experience, four extremely proactive officers is the bare minimum: a guild leader, a raid leader, a full-time recruiter, and a loot master. Each of these roles is highly stressful, and I don't recommend anyone doubling up on them. From there, you'll eventually need more officers to help with each of these tasks and to carry out other duties. Officers who can do all that with less than four are special people, and you should thank them every day.
You can build up such an officer corps by drawing from your membership, but if your members aren't interested in helping out, it will be difficult to find enough officers. You can't count on new recruits to take on these tasks.
I don't say this to scare anyone away from 25-man raiding. I say it to make you aware of what it takes to do it right. If you've weighed all the options and you want to raid at this size, do yourself a favor and make sure you have enough support before you set out on this venture. Plowing ahead into 25-man territory when your guild isn't ready for it can cause enough strain to bring down the whole community.
Predictions
Some players have predicted that 25-man raiding will become extinct in Cataclysm. I don't buy it for a second. As long as there are players who find more enjoyment in the 25s -- and there are plenty of them out there, believe me -- they will continue to make larger raids happen regardless of other factors.
I do believe, on the the other hand, that strict 10-man raiding guilds will become much more common. Many players prefer this size, and many officers prefer the lighter workload. Now that 10s will offer a similar difficulty curve for nearly the same rewards, more guilds will choose this path (but certainly not all).
Of course, some guilds will try to be flexible. They'll run 10s when attendance is low, two 10s when they have the right mix of specs and classes, and 25s when they've got a full boat. It'll be easier to pull off with the new raid lockout system, and it's one way to work around attendance issues.
In my opinion, however, aiming for a specific size and doing your best to make sure your raids go off as planned and progress as expected is the best way to prevent drama and ensure long-term success for your guild -- no matter which size you choose.
So, after all that, what's your plan? Tell us below!
/salute
Learn how to survive the leveling process, deal with guild perk freeloaders, and discuss the guild talent controversy or the guild reputation system. Send Scott your guild-related questions and suggestions at scott@wow.com; you may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Blacksen Nov 15th 2010 3:10PM
One of the major issues that you've missed is that it doesn't really matter what players themselves want - it's what the leaders want.
Incentives to downsize to 10man:
- Less overhead
- Easier coordination
- Easier recruiting effort
- Easier to start up and get moving.
Incentives to raid 25man:
- More epic feel
- More Valor Points
- Possibly More loot.
The core issue is that, when you look at most of the incentives, leaders are pushed to 10mans while individuals are pushed to 25mans. One of the major reasons that 25man raiding is struggling is simply because no one wants to coordinate 25 people when they could do the same thing coordinating 10.
Raiders might enjoy 25man raiding more, but without a leader, these raiders will disperse.
Wild Colors Nov 15th 2010 3:20PM
I strongly suspect that the "More Epic Feel" prong will attract plenty of leaders. We'll have to wait and see. But I doubt that someone like Matticus is going to say "Screw the epic feel, I don't want to put the time into this endeavor that 25-mans demand." Some leaders will, some won't.
If you are a player who really enjoys 25-mans, and you find that there aren't enough 25-man raid leads, you should give it a try yourself.
thepiratester Nov 15th 2010 3:24PM
Im done with 25man raids. I know for a fact that im not alone. There are a few guilds on my server already breaking into 10.
Dont forget that 25mans may give more valor but we are all still capped in the end.
Syggy Nov 15th 2010 3:25PM
Without a leader, they will.. find a new leader. That might be in your guild, or that might be in other guilds. While I will agree the raid leader(s) feelings are pertinent, don't write off the other 9/24 people.
Byron Nov 15th 2010 4:41PM
I think the incentives will also vary according to how 'pro' your realm is.
On high-pop realms that serious raiders and pro pvp'ers and the like gravitate to (Kil'Jaeden comes to mind), 25s will be more popular. There are more pro raid leaders capable of organizing 25 man raids, and more pro players who are much easier to organize and lead (they actually come to raids stocked with pots & buffs, correctly geared, know the strats backward and forward, and don't stand in the fires, among other things). It will be easy to recruit a quality, committed raid group for 25s and run it efficiently and reliably.
On smaller and/or more casual realms where the experience and serious of the raiders is more variable, it can be much more difficult to organize non-fail 25man raids and raiding guilds. Guild leaders there may find it more effective to focus on building a committed, high-quality 10 man raiding team that progresses through the content and gets it on farm quickly, rather than continuously banging their head against the wall in 25s.
I've played on both types of realms, as both raider and officer of both types of guilds.
Thalen Nov 15th 2010 8:16PM
Look at it from a non-officer, non-player perspective. Just logic.
Of course there will be plenty of 25 man guilds. Old school raiders still miss (?) 40 man raids, and a lot of their opinion is tied to world/server first 25 man kills. It's hard to get out of that mindset.
However, since there's little real incentive to run 25 over 10, there will be a large number of 25 man guilds that downsize. How large is hard to say, but you know it will happen. How many 10 man guilds see the changes as a good reason to bump up to 25? I'm betting about 2...
This isn't a good or bad thing, I have no opinion about the situation itself in particular. From my point of view (officer), I'd like to keep fielding 25's, but I'll stick to 10's if it comes to that, and I'll be happy either way. But it's just inevitable that the changes will result in a significant shift to downsizing in general.
Stannislaus Nov 15th 2010 3:12PM
One big intangible you missed is AFK'ing. This is one reason I always preferred 10 mans. There is no rhyme or reason for when and why people go AFK, or for how long. In my experience (I admit my 25 man raiding was pretty casual) this ends up with a longer time commitment and less success for each night of raiding.
I also am a big fan of 10 man raiding. I LIKE the feeling that more is required from me, and that doing my duty is key to the success or failure of my team. I will probably be only raiding 10's in Cata, unless some unforeseen circumstances arise.
Saeadame Nov 15th 2010 3:16PM
I would think AFKing would be more of an issue in 10 mans... many fights can be 24 maned once people know them but a new fight is much less likely to be 9 man-able.
Of course, tanks or heals AFKing is an issue in either size.
Stannislaus Nov 15th 2010 3:35PM
Yes, when one person goes AFK in a 10 man its harder to do a boss. But in 25 man, there are more people and more issues to deal with. I've had way fewer problems with AFK's in 10's than in 25's.
Grak Nov 16th 2010 5:29AM
Having raided both 10 and 25's, the afk problem is much more prevalent in 25's. Mostly because players know the raid can continue to clear trash or make another boss attempt without them. On 10man each person is critical and therefore less likely to go afk, as they know their absence will stick out like a sore thumb.
That was one of the biggest incentives to change to 10man raiding; more people = more slackers.
Josin Nov 15th 2010 3:13PM
My plan is to wait and see. Low attendance as people wait for Cataclysm to arrive, so we're not doing a whole lot of anything. We won't know our plans until we can more accurately see what our viable options are.
Saeadame Nov 15th 2010 3:14PM
I definitely agree that 25m is not dead. My guild is planning on continuing to do 25 mans in Cataclysm. However, my guild will also probably be less likely to PUG a bunch of people if it's, I don't know, around Christmas or something and lots of people are on holidays. If we're missing like 10 people, we might just get 5 to sit out and do a 10 man that week instead, rather than trying to PUG 10 competent non-guildies.
But like I said, we still want to AIM for doing 25 mans.
Wes Nov 16th 2010 12:32AM
Won't that be a fun challenge telling which 5 ppl that they are sitting out :)
Armill3 Nov 15th 2010 3:15PM
I think both raid types will continue to thrive, though I think on average, more ten man raids will be run. I think this will be due in part to the simpler logistics of finding ten people to raid: it takes fewer people to organize (most of the time, just one), and any PuGs that will happen will more than likely be 10 man raids, because there is little incentive to spend more time gathering 25 people and all the hassles that entails now that rewards are the same.
I think that the net result of this is that PuG raids will become much rarer, owing to having only one lockout per week on a given raid instance. Raiding tends to be more successful when you have a committed group of individuals tackling it, at least in my experience, and you don't find this level of devotion in a PuG. On the other hand, perhaps there will be less incentive now for members of PuGs to ninja-log, since they will no longer have that ICC 25 lockout to screw around in while still having their "real" progression in their guild's ICC 10. Hard to say. I doubt the reliability and quality of folks looking to PuG content will improve because of this change, though.
Saeadame Nov 15th 2010 3:19PM
I don't know, PUGing on some servers will probably still be fairly common. I mean, my server is currently PUGing Bane 10 and 25 man, so I'd expect people to continue trying to PUG progression. Some of those groups even form a lose kind of "guild" once they find good people, and they'll invite back the same people every week even though there's no formal commitment.
Xtofer Nov 15th 2010 3:18PM
I switched from raiding in a 25man guild to a 10man guild earlier this year and I haven't looked back. Glad it appears that the incentives are only slightly different in cataclysm.
Angrycelt Nov 15th 2010 3:24PM
I like the higher level of personal responsibility in the 10 mans. I'm there for my ability as a player and the abilities of my class. No hiding behind "the other guy".
That said, I do enjoy the bigger feel of the 25's, but I found too many guildies wanted the regular group to let them bring their alts along, which throws off the balance. If the regular disc priest suddenly wants to bring his fury warrior, it's gonna mess things up. It just seemed less important to make sure everyone was on their "A game."
That was the big breaking point in one of my chars' guilds. The "we want to get achievements and increase our rankings" crowd vs the "I want all 8 of my alts to be in ICC25 gear" group.
Those folks split off to form their own guild. I wish them the best, except for the leader of their insurrection (who left once he got Shadowmourne, but before the core group who got him there could get the chest). He can rot.
Wow, maybe I shoulda saved that for the Drama Mamas column.
Astalnar Nov 15th 2010 3:26PM
Is there any site where I can get that picture as wallpaper?
Revynn Nov 15th 2010 3:28PM
I float back and forth on this, tbh. 25's do feel bigger and more important than 10's, but I like the closer and more relazed atmosphere of a smaller raid group. Fewer people means more BS'ing in vent, fewer bio breaks and AFK's, fewer personality conflicts. However, while I tend to prefer 10's, I'm not so stuck on them that I'll leave my guild if we decide to do 25's.
As it is right now, we'll likely stick with 10s for the first couple weeks/months of raiding since the end-of-expansion downturn in attendance and the subsequent break we took from raiding as a guild has caused a lot of people to leave and it'll be a while before we can fill a 25 again. If we get a solid roster and start 25's, fine. If we decide that 25's are more trouble than they're worth and stick with 10's, great.
Hih Nov 15th 2010 3:48PM
"Heroic 25s will drop more items per player than heroic 10s."
Oooh, really? Last I'd heard 25s were dropping 5 pieces of loot and 10 mans were dropping 2 pieces. What is it on heroic? 6/2?