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11-18-2010 @ 7:07PM
I think this is a great analysis. Time and again, people complaining about how "easy" Wrath dungeons became weren't considering at all how far removed their gear had become from the gear that the dungeons were designed to be run in.
11-18-2010 @ 11:09PM
No, they were easy to start with. I almost never wiped at the start of wrath. Ever.
11-18-2010 @ 7:31PM
I'm not sure I see it the same way as Sleutel. Even my first character to hit 80 very early in WoLK never ran a single regular dungeon, as the heroics were beyond easy, even wearing all quest greens. Certainly overpowered gear made them even easier (or maybe just faster), but the fact you can run a heroic dungeon successfully in leveling greens makes WolK dungeons VERY much different from the heroic dungeons in BC.
11-18-2010 @ 7:33PM
As I pointed out in my wall of texts a few comments down, Loken was, at one stage, the most deadly mob in WoW. Take a look at some of the comments on wowhead about heroic bosses posted from patch 2.4.3 (beta) or 3.0.X. You'll notice that at the time, some heroic bosses were certainly not easy.
Curse you comment system and your double posting ways!
11-18-2010 @ 7:51PM
@ roboticus. you are so full of sh%$T. if you were at the beginning of Wrath doing heroics in quest greens, then you were being carried by well geared players as 1) if you were tanking, you were not defense capped and your health would have been struggling to hit 15k health.2) a healer would not have the mana to heal without drinking every 2 pulls. Maybe a healer could do heroics in all greens if the rest of the group was very well geared.3) no way a dps would be hit capped in all greens and your dps would be struggling at 1K+Please dont tell lies on these forums. Or at least admit you were being carried by other players.
11-18-2010 @ 7:47PM
@Ilunc Well, bully for you. Aren't you just super awesomesauce? I went in with people who are quite good at their classes and we still managed to wipe on more than a few occasions. When our gear was just middling and we were learning the encounter wipes happened (just, apparently, not to you).
Wow, ilunc, you must have been a superb player, then. Because I remember the dungeons being somewhat difficult, and I remember when it was nigh on impossible to find groups for certain heroics because they were difficult for people to do. Seriously. Right now the heroics are laughable because everyone outgears them, and I imagine that the people who jumped right into raiding at the beginning of Wrath probably feel that they were *always* easy because they didn't really have to spend that much time grinding them, but you know what? I remember that even in my Naxx-25 geared guild, we had to actually pay attention in heroics like Old Kingdom. We generally didn't wipe, but they still required that we paid attention and play our characters competently, which I don't call "easy"Honestly, I can't help but think that every time one of us tries to point out that Wrath Heroics were moderately difficult when Wrath launched that someone always comes in to say "Nope, always easy, I never had any problems" just to stroke their own epeen and reassure themselves that their RAGE at Blizzard is well-founded and that everyone else is a scrub.And seriously. If you never had problems because you were a good player running with other good players, that's great. But please, try to have some perspective and recognize that not everyone playing is you, and that what you think of as "easy" might actually be difficult to someone else. For example, I think that getting out of the fire is easy- but for my legally blind mother-in-law who has to play on a huge screen that she STILL squints at, it's a lot more difficult. I imagine WoW seems pretty easy to a person who's been playing video games since they were six, but people have different levels of abilities and for some, it takes a little longer to learn. I imagine there are a lot more of THOSE people playing WoW than those of us who find the trials of raiding "easy," and I imagine that Blizzard will be going by what's difficult for the majority of people, not what's difficult for the "raiding elite" or whatever you want to call it.
11-18-2010 @ 7:58PM
Yes, even at the beginning of Wrath, most of the dungeons were easy *compared to raid content*. But dungeons are *always* easy compared to raid content. (1) They're designed to appeal to more casual players, and (b) having only five players means that even if you were trying to satisfy a hardcore demographic, you still wouldn't be able to use a lot of the crazier mechanics because of redundancy and class balance. I'm talking about the current level of play, where I can pull a dozen mobs and hold them all while the DPS AOEs them down and the healer sighs and buffs their nails. Well before the current tier, healers would sometimes even switch to their DPS offspecs as soon as they saw I was taking almost no damage.
11-18-2010 @ 8:07PM
Yes, wrath dungeons were "somewhat difficult", but that was it...There were a few instances/bosses that were hardish, but that was it. Loken, H UP, H HoS and H Occ was about it, and only certain encounters from those heroics. The rest were faceroll easy, maybe not faceroll easy for the achievements, but faceroll easy for the loot. In addition, many people didnt even bother running heroics, since Naxx 10 and even 25 could be done in quest gear. As a BC raider, I know what it was like then. You couldn't do kara in quest gear. You had to farm heroics, do the key chain. Then you could do the first 4 bosses usually. Farm those for a bit, progress passed Curator, and THEN you could do 25mans. And back then, Heroics were HARD. H SH, H SH, H SV, H Arc, H Bot, H Mech, all hard, and not just once boss... Then MgT came out, and that was HARD too. I was in t5 at the time, and you could not pug MgT or its heroic version (mostly cause CC was hard to get in a pug,since only mage/rogue/hunter was real CC back then)So yea, Wrath heroics were bad. And on the comments of they provide loot for new toons. They need a system where they can detect somehow if you have raided on that account or not. I hate seeing new charactors at 80 in t9 (t10 now that JP are out) who think they are ready to raid and have no clue about raid mechanics. Luckily, Cata instances teach raid mechanics a lot better. Bunch of people gonna get their asses handed to them.
11-18-2010 @ 8:15PM
It's funny the anger generated in these comments when someone suggests that something was easy for them. Recall that the beginning of WoLK did not have the LFD tool, so most dungeon groups were composed of guildies and not random, uncoordinated LFD people we have now. I'm sure the dungeons WERE difficult for people who found themselves in bad groups.And to the particularly angry one, it was not hard to get defense capped wearing only quest rewards and non-epic craftables. Moreover, I remember that DPS in quest rewards was well over 2k. Perhaps your perceived difference is not the gear?
11-18-2010 @ 8:36PM
@ roboticus. wow dude, more lies.your original comment was "all green quest rewards" and nothing from regular dungeons. now you say you can get defense capped at 540 with crafted non epics, and all greens. As someone who got 2 tanks to 540 def cap, this is utter bs. Please construct your list of gear that gets you to 540 without using rep rewards and normal dungeon blues as well as crafted. Just normal quest greens and crafted non epics. GL. either you have a very short memory or you just like lieing on the internet. and if you were getting 2k dps it wasnt on boss fights. How were you hitting the bosses with normal green rewards (again, no rep grind rewards, no crafted gear, no normal dungeon rewards. Just using "green quest gear". your words not mine. Hit rating much?
11-18-2010 @ 8:38PM
@ozreece77I was defense capped before I set foot in a heroic (DK, before the gargoyle runeforge). If you look at rep vendors there are some items with incredibly large amounts of defense rating (before it got taken out...).My healers could handle more than 2 pulls in a row. I admit that you couldn't zerg the entire first group like you can now in UK, but that's not the point.Other than a select few (HoS event, Loken, Occy), heroics weren't that difficult, and I don't believe they were really meant to be super hard either.
11-18-2010 @ 8:39PM
@ozreece77Ah, in quest greens - sorry, need my morning coffee =]
11-18-2010 @ 8:44PM
Most of the fools saying they plowed trough WotlK dungeons probably either ran with sunwell geared premades or weren't even playing at the start of wotlk.Also, the big difference here is that when WotlK came out, the community in genaral and elitists were way more experienced with the game than they were when BC came out, thus making the transition that much easier that time around.WotlK heroics were designed with Tanks having a little bit over 20k hp in mind. We now have tanks with triple that amount. They were also designed for people doing 1k8-2k dps, we now have people doing 10k+ making it 5 times more.I'm sorry, but the dungeons are fine, its the gear inflation that made them a complete joke, just like running BC heroics in WotlK gear (which have around 3 to 5 times the stats) makes them a joke as well.At the end of BC, people in sunwell gear were plowing trough heroics. Someone pretending this is new and unique to WotlK simply shows that he was a mediocre player back in BC.
11-18-2010 @ 8:59PM
Actually, you don't have to go so far as the beginning of Wrath. When ICC opened and those 3 new dungeons opened, I remember very clearly how people wiped in Halls of Reflection, because of the massive healing and aggro problems people had with the waves. And let's not forget the second boss of FoS who nailed every group trying to zerg it to the ground with his Mirrored Souls. Personally, I agree with the article for the most part, except that I think you shouldn't be allowed to have the same gear as a guild-less PuG, than as a hard working guilded raider. But that's just me. XD
11-18-2010 @ 8:56PM
@Roboticus: Don't change your story, bro.You said "quest greens", not non-epic craftables or blue quest rewards.To put a long story short, say these words out loud: "I got carried, lawl."
11-18-2010 @ 9:00PM
@Barthaes"I admit that you couldn't zerg the entire first group like you can now in UK, but that's not the point."No, actually, that *is* the point. That's exactly what we're talking about here, 100%.
11-18-2010 @ 9:03PM
Double-post due to lack of edit button.Don't forget to also add mana-efficiency to the equation here. In Vanilla and BC, one of the main reasons I'd have to take a break was to either let the clothies drink because they ran OOM or because I had to drink myself (being a pally tank). These quick 1 min breaks (sometimes more because someone always stands around and starts drinking late for some reason) made the runs that much longer, let's say you had something like 60 pulls in the dungeon, you'd need to make a pee-pee stop every 3-4 pulls on average. Thats 15 mana breaks troughout the dungeon. 15mins (or possibly more) added to the run time simply because of mana troubles.With WotlK came the Divine Plea syndrom, where everyone has mana return abilities and never needs to drink, ever (unless you're somehow doing it wrong, in which case its very easy to just lag behind for a bit and drink up while the rest keep moving).The Zerg has way more behind it than just dungeon conception.
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