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11-27-2010 @ 2:40PM
“I think that statement was directed at people who seriously focus on PvP.” Except that he specificaly said, “If you plan on focusing on PvE….”I completely disagree about racials. Ignoring the fact that racials are not make-or-break abilities for any class, and ignoring the fact that players should play whatever race they enjoy the most, WoW should not all be about balance. Years ago, people would play classes in RPGs to show just how powerful they are. Ever see any troll mages? They’re saying to the world, “Yeah, I can be powerful even without great racials.” Anyone can use great racials and be like everyone else; it takes a great player to dominate even without super-powerful racial abilities.
11-27-2010 @ 4:47PM
But...it isn't possible. You might be able to make a case for PvP skill and bring in War Stomp (I think Moonkin Form can use it, but I know Cat and Bear cannot,) but not in PvE.You have to compare the DPS increase of Berserking, which is a minimum of 1% haste if used on cooldown (more if the encounter ends before 3 minutes) and Beast Slaying, which is a passive 5% increase in damage against beast flagged mobs, to...nothing. Tauren have no racials at all that could cause them to increase their DPS by any means; at best, you can have anecdotal evidence of surviving some boss ability by 200 health and managing to survive, while a troll would have died in that situation. I support flavor, I support personal choice, I want people to play a race because it's the race they enjoy; however, practically speaking, tauren racials are worthless in PvE and mediocre at best in PvP. Night elves still have a practical purpose in PvP with Shadow Meld, Elusiveness, and Quickness, which is easily comparable to Aberration, Darkflight, and Viciousness from Worgen. For a balance druid, there simply isn't as much reason to be a tauren -- or to a certain extent night elf -- in PvE, just as there isn't much of a reason for feral druid tanks to be a troll or a worgen. Perhaps that is the balance between the two -- trolls are clearly better for DPS/healing and tauren are better for tanks -- but I find that to be a poor balancing method for racials.
11-27-2010 @ 11:37PM
What isn’t possible? It’s not possible to be a great player without certain racials? Poppycock!So Tauren don’t have any racials to improve DPS…again, so? The game isn’t all about DPS. There’s skill and talents and roleplaying and utility and backstory and characters.… Again, not every race needs to be balanced. Balance is boring. Flavor is fun! Frankly, I would play as a troll even if they didn’t have any racials. Do you want every racial to be “+1% DPS/Crit/Hit”? BO-RING! You already admitted that the slight increase in DPS isn’t a make or break for anyone, so why change it?
11-28-2010 @ 12:17AM
The comment was "Anyone can use great racials and be like everyone else; it takes a great player to dominate even without super-powerful racial abilities," and it simply isn't true.Racials are not going to cause a bad play to become good, they are going to make good players better. If you are in a situation where you are struggling with your DPS simply because you do not know your rotation, are not properly geared, are not specced properly, and other factors of skill/research, then racials are not going to matter for you. However, if we are talking about comparing the two best players in the world with equal gear, then it is the racials that are going to be the defining factor over who produces higher DPS without exception. The game is about DPS when you are a DPS. I am a balance druid, I write for balance druid, balance druids are a DPS spec. Period. That is your point and purpose for existing. Do you have additional utility abilities? Yes. Are you capable of off-healing in a pinch? Yes. That is not the reason that a balance druid is brought into a raid.I have done this argument many times and in many forms, I have been fighting for balance druid's damage since vanilla, and I have been doing it for this reason. I will never tell a balance druid to ignore their healing abilities, I will never tell a balance druid to ignore their survivability and utility tools, and I will never say that a player should become tunnel visioned on their meter, but I will always say thing; balance druids are for DPS, DPSing is your primary goal, if our DPS is not high enough for whatever reason, then we have no reason to exist. That is the truth of the matter. Racials are not a "significant" impact in the sense that they will not make up for your mistakes, they are not, however, useless nor can they be ignored. There is a very good reason that you see massive numbers of people race change when racials get rebalanced, there is a very good reason that you see very specific race/class set-ups on the tournament realms -- it's because, all things being equal, racials are what is going to make the difference between a win and a loss. Unlike other classes that have a wide variety of race options to choose from, druids only have two per faction, and there is absolutely no balance between those options at this point in time in terms of racials. Trolls balance druids are the better choice over tauren bar none if you are horde. For alliance, you can make a case for the utility of a night elf over the raw DPS of a worgen, but in a straight DPS comparison a worgen is going to win. DPS may not be the only thing in this game, and I of all people understand that, but it is a very important factor for some players; and I also happen to be one of those. I am a progression raider, I do hard mode content, and DPS is very important in that area of the game. Many hard mode encounters have very strict DPS requirements, and if your guild cannot met them, then you fail. Again, if our DPS is not high enough then we are going to be replaced. On an individual level, racials may seem minor, but they are a very huge deal. As an example, Every Man for Himself was grossly overpowered for the heroic Northrend Beasts encounter because you could use it to completely mitigate Icehowl's Frost Breath for everyone. Raiding as alliance at the time, we had every one group up and had a set rotation for EMfH to break every single Frost Breath. That's a big deal -- it meant more DPS time, it meant having our tanks never being frozen for threat generation, it meant none of our healers ever being frozen to do their job; in a time where this encounter was difficult and has a tight DPS timer, that was a very big deal.Other racials behave similarly. In a straight Patchwerk style fight, they might not be that significant of a difference, but you cannot always place a specific DPS tag on them. Blowing Berserking to get a portal or ooze down faster on heroic Jaraxxus or PP is a very big deal that's worth more that an equalized DPS gain; and the DPS gains themselves are not equalized for every encounter. Again for Berserking, using it while Icehowl is stunned is going to result in significantly more DPS than it would be parsed at for a Patchwerk encounter. These things matter and racials do make a difference.I have never said that every racial needs to be a straight 1% gain as Heroic Presence or Viciousness is; Berserking and Blood Fury are actually excellent racials design wise because of this factor. I have said that every race should have some form of DPS racial options in order to create better balance. Balance does not mean perfect equality, balance does not mean that everything is the same; balance is everything being within an acceptable range of other options available. There is no balance between tauren and troll racials -- and from a PvE DPS perspective, there isn't a balance between night elf and worgen racials either -- and the same is true for other races as well. All races do not have to be equal, all racials don't have to be the same, but there at least needs to be some attempt at equality.
11-28-2010 @ 3:08AM
“However, if we are talking about comparing the two best players in the world with equal gear, then it is the racials that are going to be the defining factor over who produces higher DPS without exception.”If you can even define “the two best players in the world,” that means that racials are definitely important to two people. So what about the other 99.9995% of the playerbase? There are so many other factors to consider that racials will never be the make-or-break ability. “All things being equal,” maybe racials matter, but all things are not equal. They are never equal.“The game is about DPS when you are a DPS. I am a balance druid, I write for balance druid, balance druids are a DPS spec. Period. That is your point and purpose for existing.”If that’s your attitude, why be a druid in the first place? Why not just switch to a mage, or whichever one class consistently dominates DPS? I mean, if DPS is “your point and purpose for existing,” shouldn’t you pick the absolute best class for DPS? For that matter, do basketball coaches only pick players over a certain height? Do they only pick players of a certain race? Does a football coach look at a player’s passing average, and only pick the one person who has the highest? No. That’s not how life works, and that’s not how WoW works either.Honestly, if this is your attitude, I don’t know why you would even bother playing the game. Just come up with the absolute perfect race and class and spec and gear, plug the numbers into a spreadsheet, find the absolute maximum DPS, and declare that you’ve “won” World of Warcraft.“I will never say that a player should become tunnel visioned on their meter, but I will always say thing; balance druids are for DPS, DPSing is your primary goal, if our DPS is not high enough for whatever reason, then we have no reason to exist.”Riiiiiight. No tunnel vision there.“There is a very good reason that you see massive numbers of people race change when racials get rebalanced”Are you saying that all of those players are the top two players in the world? Are you saying that all of them have the best spec and the best gear and are playing their classes to the absolute best? Or is it possible that all those people are changing because they THINK that racials will somehow make them better, when it really isn’t a large factor at all? And is it possible that many of those players have that attitude because of you?“because, all things being equal, racials are what is going to make the difference between a win and a loss.”1. They are only going to make a difference if the margin of error is that slim.2. All things are never equal.What a boring game World of Warcraft would be if everyone had your attitude! I like seeing frost mages and fire mages and arcane mages. They all do DPS, and some specs and players do more or less damage than others, but the point of the game is to play and have fun. All you’re doing is getting people to complain about something that won’t affect them 99.999% of the time, instead of just enjoying their class and playing how they want! If you’re in a raid that will kick you out because you’re the wrong class, then I don’t see why you would want to be in a group like that in the first place.
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