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11-28-2010 @ 6:54PM
And then Aggra came along and Mary Sue'd his character to hell. Seriously, she manages to beat out Rhonin with how much of a sue she is - at least Rhonin got a little bit better once Blizzard started writing him. Aggra is just...eugh.
11-28-2010 @ 7:01PM
How, exactly? I don't think that means what you think it means.
11-28-2010 @ 7:22PM
Yes, "Mary Sue" really is one of those words that comes up waaaaaaaay too often in these lore discussions, isn't it?
11-28-2010 @ 7:30PM
11-28-2010 @ 7:50PM
The big problem I have with Aggra is how shoved onto us she feels.We've never heard of her prior to the book, even though she's apparently one of the best shaman ever, and feels almost tacked onto the story in a very awkward and forced attempt to get Thrall in a relationship with another Orc.She was not well introduced, and her relationship with Thrall developed far too quickly and clumsily. Had she been merely introduced in the book, and given some foundation for her character to build upon, and then later had the relationship with Thrall arise as development, it would be much easier to swallow. As it is, it feels like she came out of nowhere for no real reason other than to break the Thrall/Jaina ship.
11-28-2010 @ 8:21PM
@Poggg...That word doesn't mean what you think it means.http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySueBe educated. Since so far she has not had reality bend to her, I highly doubt she is a Sue.@TabasaI do agree that it felt a little clunky, her introduction into the greater WoW universe. However, I do not think this is any fault except the length of the time we are actually shown in Nagrand. I mean, heck. We technically get more scene with Anduin and Baine then with Aggra and Thrall. I do think it could have been handled better, but I will point out that the reasons he probably hasn't shown herself before hand is a couple big reasons. One was that strangely, in Outlands we got few big Shaman dealing with the elements there, and none which are expanded on in any sense. The elemental stuff was pretty much shoved into one area of Nagrand. Basically, we never had to concentrate on that element of Outlands before. Now, we do, and so different things are highlighted.But with that said, I DO think that Golden did a great job of setting up her character. You know how she actsm you know some very key things about her.Also, I very highly doubt this was just to break up the Jaina/Thrall ship. And I shipped them. As a fellow J/T shipper to another, please for the love of all that is good GET OVER IT. They never were, and though it was fun to think about, they probably never WOULD have been. It would have taken a hella lot of finagaling storywise to get it to work, and Warcraft is not exactly going to be writing a romance novel anytime soon. And it would have taken something novel-length to get it to work.The reason they got it in now was to expand on it in the coming expansion. They wanted this to be part of Thrall's story, they wanted him to have a mate and maybe a child, someone to support him and who wouldn't be another major worry to him. They wanted him to have something for himself: Love. So please, can we stop the Jaina/Thrall butt hurt already? PLEASE?Note: If you were not a Jaina/Thrall shipper and simply commenting from a stand-back standpoint, sorry. I just have had too many people bashing Aggra because it gets in the way of their OTP. I am a little sick of it.
11-28-2010 @ 8:25PM
Also: I HIGHLY doubt that Thrall would introduce a pairing just to break up speculation by a very small portion of the player base, and to ruin their fanfiction.Heck, they still haven't cleared up the whole 'Night Elves came from Trolls' thing, one way or the other.(They so did, btw.)
11-28-2010 @ 9:18PM
See, the thing about Mary Sues is that it's not actually about what they do. All the over-the-top stuff with the amazing powers and how everyone loves them and how they're so beautiful is a symptom. The cause is how the writer feels about the character. When the writer is so attached to the character that they can't look at that character objectively and write them as a real person with strengths and weaknesses, but instead start doing anything (possibly going as far to break the rules of their own world) they can to make sure that that character always gets what the author wants... then you've got a Mary Sue.And Metzen writes all Mary Sues, frankly. WAIT WAIT WAIT hear me out-- **this isn't a bad thing.** It's a sign of a writer who has not fully matured. But Mary Sues can be a lot of fun-- see the wild, out-of-control success of the Twilight franchise. It isn't BAD, it doesn't make you an IRREDEEMABLE AND HORRIBLE person to write a Mary Sue. It does mean that you need to do a bit more work and possibly an editor who will call you on it. And I do think that WoW has the resources to be written by a professional, objective writer, rather than someone who loves his character too much.
11-28-2010 @ 10:39PM
I'm generally somewhat confused as to what exactly Mary Sue means. I tend to go along with the wikipedia definition of an overly perfect character *cough* Golden's Anduin *cough*, but I can see where Schadenfreude is coming from too and appreciate that input.Regardless, I agree that Aggra was thrust upon us, and her relationship with Thrall was far too quickly established. I understand that feelings can develop quickly, but the buildup was incredibly flat. We're given nothing to suggest anything should have developed between them.And I do have to add...@SchadenfreudeDid you really just say (paraphrasing here), "It's not a bad thing... it gave us Twilight" ????
11-28-2010 @ 10:59PM
@DendarisI would say Anduin borders on Sue-ism, but isn't quite there. Right now he is just a overly nice character.See, if he was actually good at melee combat, and could heal as well as any other priest, WHILE being uber-nice... yeah, then I would say he is a problem. I do think he needs a couple character flaws though. I get the feeling she just really likes his character, and didn't have enough time to really get to know him and flesh him out. I have blocks like that sometimes with characters as well. Makes my head hurt. :PThen again, I think I am looking at this book and the characters in perspective as a writer. I see a book that is heavily influenced by forces outside the author, and was only written and edited within 3 months. The fact that it was as good as it was surprised me, honestly. Heck, it takes me three months just to feel like I know one character, let alone a whole book full of 'em...
11-28-2010 @ 11:10PM
@ Dendaris:*spittake* CERTAINLY NOT! I'm saying that Sues--while bad writing, like Twilight-- can be successful. (And even fun, if you like Twilight in a so-bad-it's-good way. Personally I find Twilight to be so-bad-it's horrible.)
11-29-2010 @ 12:50AM
Anyone who gets angry and calls Aggra a Mary-Sue should remember one thing: Thrall is Metzen's personal Mary-Stu. He lives Thrall, he breathes Thrall, he is even the voice of Thrall. If you look at the newer art of Thrall (Anne put it on the second page), it even LOOKS like Chris Metzen. (See hairline, jaw, eyes.)I don't know any true geek that could put together a story inspired by their favorite comics, books and movies and NOT Mary Sue/Stu it up. JK Rowling did this, so did Stephenie Meyer and many other authors of popular franchises today. Do you know why these franchises are popular? People like characters who are relatable, yet powerful. They like stories they can easily put themselves into. It inspires imagination and creativity. I love the lore Metzen has created. I truly do. Sometimes, as an Alliance player, the pure Horde bias in the game irritates me. How many years did the Alliance go with no real inspiring leader (some would say we still have none) while the Horde got the illustrious Thrall? But the story is damned good so I suck it up and deal with it.Yes, I even like Rhonin and Krasus. Shoot me.
11-29-2010 @ 1:09AM
@roseclown - Well, while I am a T/J shipper myself, I'd like to think that my comments were more objective than not. There's a reason I said "feels like" rather than saying that's actually what the intention was. Aggra and the development of the relationship was not well handled, on it's own merits. "OTP" hate doesn't need to enter the equation.My point was mostly that the entire thing comes off as very clunky and forced, both the heavy handed "Thrall must find a mate" portions early on in the book as well as the actual interactions between the characters. I don't necessarily have a problem with the idea of Aggra and Thrall winding up together, but it would have been nice to have gotten to know the character quite a bit more on her own merits rather than tying her together with Thrall almost immediately.It's very hard to come to a conclusion other than that Aggra was only created as a character to be Thrall's mate, with little to no characterization on her own merits. That has nothing to do with being "butthurt" over another potential pairing being turned down.As I said before, had we spent a lot more of her time in the book to construct her character, and let the romantic developments actually develop over time instead of rushing it to fit it in by the end of the book (am I mistaken or isn't Golden writing at least one more Pre-Cata book?), the situation would be much easier to swallow.
11-29-2010 @ 1:59AM
@ Roseclown"I would say Anduin borders on Sue-ism, but isn't quite there. Right now he is just a overly nice character.See, if he was actually good at melee combat, and could heal as well as any other priest, WHILE being uber-nice... yeah, then I would say he is a problem. "Wait... like a paladin??? o.OI didn't read any further down than this, so in case someone else pointed it out, sorry.My .02 on it all: Aggra is not a Mary-Sue. Mary-Sues have the world bend to them, have no flaws, have no issues, and are just fantastic at it all.Mary-Sues can travel thru time, fight in hand to hand combat as well as cast powerful spells, fight almost tirelessly for hours on end, and channel magic even though the "source of all magic at that time" is sealed off from everyone else. Rhonin is a classic mary-sue. I also agree that Aggra was dumped on us. But what the book and game does not convey well is that Thrall was back in Nagrand for several months? I mean how much game time has taken place since Arthas was struck down and Deathwing burst out of the Maelstrom? I want to say I read a blue post that said 6 months or so... that's really fast IMO. The book seems to say at the very least it was 3+ weeks. In game it was an afternoon trip out to the Furies and Aggra, and then back to the Maelstrom for some work.I think if Metzen/Golden sat down and figured this out and explained it, then cool. If not, then we are stuck with the girl-friend of Go'el that has essentially shacked up with him after 2 or 3 dates.
11-29-2010 @ 4:14AM
@Schadenfreude: "It's a sign of a writer who has not fully matured" .. you know what's another sign of a writer who has not fully matured? Writing books based on video games.
11-29-2010 @ 9:04AM
Carson... I spit on you.
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