Gold Capped: Why deep undercutting on the auction house works

In a thread in the comments on my last article in which I had advised a reader to undercut his glyph competition heavily instead of camping the auction house, I got another comment that got me thinking about pricing. It basically stated that every time the commenter undercut heavily on glyphs, he would immediately get re-undercut by a few copper unless his price was down to the point of no profit.
I've written a little about the topic of pricing and undercutting before, but I felt it was time for a refresher. I'm going to start off by quoting what I wrote last March: "If everyone is knocking a copper off the next highest auction, they only way to undercut successfully is to try camp the AH and make sure you're always the competitor who has visited most recently. Needless to say, this is a colossal waste of your time." This is as true now as it was then.
A colossal waste of time
It takes me 15 minutes to list my whole inventory of glyphs. If my biggest competitor and I sat there for a day and did nothing but cancel and relist with a 1 copper undercut, we'd basically split the market as evenly as if we posted everything at the same price, assuming it took us the same amount of time to complete a posting cycle. Since few people have the ability to camp the AH, the variable everyone tries to control is how long it's been since they last posted, reasoning that the more often they post, the more sales they'll make.
This is completely accurate; however, it's a pretty terrible return on your investment of time. Every single person who thinks this way (and there are a lot of them) splits the market according to who relists most frequently. Aside from getting clever about adding your competition to your friends list, the only way to get outside of this dynamic is to increase the size of the pie that everyone is splitting.
The answer is 42
The best way to increase the size of the market for those of us who can only relist every day or two is quite simply to undercut more heavily. There's a universal truth about any market that we can take advantage of in this situation: The lower a price gets, the more units will sell. The more units that sell, the more likely you are to sell your stock. Sure, you'll still get undercut (especially in the glyphs world), but since the price is lower, more buyers will actually buy the glyphs they're searching for. Eventually, everyone willing to undercut you at your price will run out of stock, and your auction will sell.
Also, competitors will be less likely to craft the glyph, because it's less profitable. These days, glyphs cost three times as many inks as they used to, and the only way to get the inks taken by a large number of the glyphs is to mill old-world herbs, many of which go for as much as 60g a stack.
I can hear the complaints in the comments already about my logic. Surely, glyphs are like toilet paper and deodorant: People will pay the fallback price for glyphs because they need them, and they just buy the lowest price auction on the auction house, regardless of how high this price is. Alas, this inflexible demand is a myth. Just because you have the lowest price auction when someone searches for a glyph they want doesn't mean they'll automatically buy it. They may scoff at the idea of paying 230 for something that takes three inks to create and go talk to a scribe friend instead, or they may simply decide they'll be able to hold off a while or use an alternate glyph. The lower the price is, the less likely these things are to happen and the more likely auction house searchers are to buy the glyph.
There's a certain price level at which the increase in the number of glyphs sold doesn't make up for the lower unit price. That point is impossible to pinpoint without access to sales data from your competitors and would probably vary wildly based on the desirability of a glyph, as well as how common the ability to craft it is. You can generalize the principle and refuse to undercut heavily below a certain threshold (mine is 30g), reasoning that even if this glyph stays in your inventory until we're all raiding level 105 bosses, at least nobody else made any money off it.
The best part of undercutting heavily
I've noticed that there's prevalent theme among people who sell glyphs: They believe that raising the average price of glyphs will always net them more profits even if it reduces the sales volume, and they like flexing their economic muscles. This leads them to do things like buying all stock below a certain price and relisting it at their fallback. This is a huge contributor to the profits of the deep undercutter, as every so often (assuming your threshold is set high enough), you'll sell a large portion of your stock at a profit in one night.
Your threshold is key for this: Nothing is more frustrating than seeing your hard-crafted glyphs selling to a competitor for less than it cost you to make them. If someone gets so excited by the logic in the first half of this article that they neglect to read this part, take full advantage and take as much of their stock below your manufacturing cost as you can get your hands on. That said, assuming they don't keep posting below cost, the market will settle into a cycle in which prices start off high and gradually reduce overall as you undercut the most profitable glyphs heavily -- at which point either the demand will pick up and empty the AH, allowing people to restart the cycle at the fallback price of whoever posts first, or some strong-like-bull, smart-like-tractor scribe will reset the market by buying everything you have for sale.
Filed under: Economy, Gold Capped






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Zalvi24 Dec 2nd 2010 5:07PM
what about other professions? seems like you only talk about glyphs, might as well rename the your post.
Ricohardt Dec 2nd 2010 5:11PM
Today's article was about glyphs, he does write about other professions.
Pyromelter Dec 2nd 2010 5:32PM
To be fair, in the last week before an expansion, you're not going to make a lot of money on flasks, crafted epics, epic gems, enchanting scrolls, as all of these will be obsolete in 5 days. Glyphs, however, are extremely useful and will be going forward, making the glyph market the most pertinent at the moment - especially with all the new troll druids, dwarven shaman, tauren paladins, human hunters, etc.
He's covered tailoring, jc, enchanting, alchemy in the past. Actually last week he covered Volatile elemental crafting material market, which has no effect on the glyph market, and only a very small effect overall on the Inscription profession.
Vogie Dec 2nd 2010 5:44PM
He uses the verb glyphs, but with a bit of whiteout and a pen, I'm sure you'll find that everything he says... in ALL of the articles... works for all professions.
Or, you know, you can think.
Blacksmithing? Belt buckles
Jewelcrafting? Gems
Leatherworking/Tailoring? Leg enchants
Alchemy? 98% of what you make
Engineering? Forum Tears
It's just product that you're paying for. He uses glyphs because they're a huge market that is now as big of turmoil as the post-roll-to-Disenchant market. Enchanting Mats used to be a HUGE market. Then glyphs became huge. Now there's people with high level of product (in this case, glyphs) with a slowly decaying market. They'll be alive for about 4-6 months, and then scribes will be down to (with the info they have now) trinkets, and Dust o' disappearance... the latter of which is capped at 10g/each, because that's what it is sold at a vendor for.
I, honestly, think Jewelcrafting is next. I could definitely see jewels getting normalized in some form similar to the LoL Runes:
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-94042-1282117053_thumb.jpg
As fun as the Economy game is, Blizzard isn't afraid of nerfing it when people feel that you HAVE to have a toon of X profession to have the needed amount of gold.
Henrah Dec 2nd 2010 5:46PM
Maybe the second part of his comment is accurate.
'Why the deep undercutting of glyphs on the auction house works' might be a more fitting title.
Spark Dec 2nd 2010 5:56PM
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Zalvi24 Dec 2nd 2010 5:07PM
what about other professions? seems like you only talk about glyphs, might as well rename the your post.
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Glyphs represent an aggressive version of other consumable markets. The listing prices are so low compared to the profit margin that dealers can afford to list and re-list at will with little consideration for cost. If you want to watch a market work at an accelerated rate, watch the glyphs. And then apply the lessons learned to the market of your choice (probably at a slower pace).
Drob10 Dec 2nd 2010 5:11PM
But, you will also have to craft 2-3 times more often because you're selling them for half or less than I do. You may only be able to post once a day, but you're adding a lot of additional craft time.
Pyromelter Dec 2nd 2010 5:23PM
Higher volume, lower prices are a steadier, more reliable way to keep the money churning. Also, if you are constantly undercutting by 1 copper, might you be wasting more time camping the AH than crafting?
Basil also did a whole series on automating as much of the crafting as possible. The people who can do this also have a leg up in the glyph-crafting game.
Finally, it would take a comparison of data sets to see which comes out on top in terms of gold per time unit. Overcutting, buying and reposting, or keeping glyph prices high by undercutting by small amounts is a much riskier way to make your gold. It might pay off in the long-term, but it's likely you'll have long stretches where you make little to no money (or even lose money in a given week), on a more risky strategy. It's kind of an argument, would you rather sell 1 glyph per week at 150g (with a chance of selling none), or 5 glyphs at 30g (where you are pretty sure you can sell those 5)?
Drob10 Dec 2nd 2010 5:39PM
You seem to be assuming nobody will undercut you if you sell low though. Even if I don't normally, somebody always does. And the cycle continues...
Megaboo Dec 2nd 2010 5:45PM
The higher volume and lower incentives for entering the market at lower prices makes up for being undercut. Basically people will eventually stop undercutting you because it isn't worth making new stock and more people will buy because it is more of a bargain.
Drob10 Dec 2nd 2010 5:54PM
But if it's a waste of my time to undercut you, then why isn't it a waste of time for you to post that low? It's not as if someone would get back into the market as soon as it's profitable again.
Aanye Dec 2nd 2010 7:25PM
If you are penny-undercutting, either:
(1) you are constantly cancelling and re-listing your glyphs, in which case you're wasting a lot of time simply walking to the mailbox; or
(2) you have a large stockpile of glyphs that may or may not get listed, but don't actually sell.
Unless you're farming for mats, crafting time is negligible per-item, especially since multiple copies can be queued at once and crafted while unattended or semi-unattended. IMO crafting is the least effort-consuming process in auctioneering. And I'm willing to bet that the deep undercutter is making far more sales per total volume than you are.
Megaboo Dec 2nd 2010 5:14PM
I did this casually for about a week and a half and turned 600 into 4k. Not super amazing money, but easy and not all that time consuming. Demand for glyphs is there at 20-40g and you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't even make a token effort to go after it.
Chmmr Dec 3rd 2010 10:36AM
All this talk of selling strategy is laden with nuggets of wisdom, however most people have not really considered the zen of glyph selling, and that is that you can make way more money than the average WoW player will earn, just by doing a once-a-day scan/craft and re-list, on autopilot as it were.
Just set your threshold to somewhere between 15-40g, set your fallback to 75-200g (both ranges dependant on server economy), undercut by a small amount, craft the most popular glyphs that are priced well, then *go do something else*. I'd be surprised if every single day, you didn't see minimally 400g in sales. Then laugh at the people in your guild advising others to go do 25 dailies.
Maybe I only have become casual about this because I've already made my 6 figures+ of assets.. but anyone can get there eventually doing these things, hardcore or casual.
Mook Dec 2nd 2010 5:19PM
I will undercut people with ____(insert metal name here) bars on my server and usually 3 or 4 gold does the trick. Although my mining isn't capped yet it seems that the market on other professions aren't as competitive as the glyph market you describe. Then again maybe it becomes more competitive when your selling metals like Saronite instead of Adamantite also could just be the pre-cat market. Maybe people are just using their time to prep for Cat instead of watching the auction house.
tatsumasa Dec 2nd 2010 5:22PM
"The lower a price gets, the more units will sell."
i'm sure i'm going to get voted down into oblivion for this, but this logic is complete crap. supply and demand exist, but undercutting by ridiculous amounts will not make people look for your items any more than they already are. this is why: you level an alt of a certain class and you get to a point where you decide it's time to buy all your glyphs for that alt. a reasonably minded person would then simply go through all the glyphs for that class and buy the cheapest ONE of each glyph. it makes no difference at all how much cheaper it is than the glyph posted above it.
the same is true of raw materials. if i need a stack of saronite ore (and i'm too lazy to go get it myself) i'm going to look at stacks of ore and the first stack of twenty i see, i'm going to buy. the only way i wouldn't would be if the amount was insanely high, which rarely happens. let's say that stack is 20g. if the next stack up is 21g, i'm still going to buy the stack for 20g. if the next stack up is 40g, it changes absolutely nothing.
from the other side of the ah, if i see saronite ore for 40g and i post mine for 20g or 39.95 (i like to undercut by 5s) and player-x comes looking for ore they need right now, it doesn't matter if it's 20 or 39.95, it's the cheapest and they are going to buy it. if i post for 20 instead of 39.95, it will not make player-x decide they want that crafted item and go looking for ore at the exact time my ore happens to be the cheapest any faster.
point being, people have their own reasons for wanting items and undercutting by stupid amounts will not make those reasons happen any faster, so it will not make the people look for the items faster, and it will not make them buy the items any faster. contrary to popular belief, it also does not make others not undercut you. check the listing for any raw material several times over the course of a week and you can see this. one person posts for 40g and then someone undercuts them to 20g, and then someone else undercuts them by one copper. the ridiculous undercut didn't stop the last person from undercutting yet again.
what undercutting by large amounts does do, is make it so everyone selling makes less profits. it also screws the undercutter themselves out of potential money. when people want something, they want it now. they don't care how much less it is than the next cheapest one.
Megaboo Dec 2nd 2010 5:35PM
You're missing the point that there is a marginal utility for the glyphs. Some people just don't care enough about a glyph to pay 200g for it. Period. By going directly to 40g you are approaching their marginal utility point, so less people will look at it and just say that's too expensive. Yes, it will just get undercut again but they will all sell instead of one selling every now and then.
Look at it this way: If the cost of getting all 20 or so glyphs for your class is ~4k gold then it is almost _cheaper_ to just level up their own inscription alt, make the glyphs they need, then compete with you. You don't want that. You want to turn a profit on your materials and time and keep prices low enough that it doesn't encourage additional competition to come in.
jonas Dec 2nd 2010 5:35PM
Except that he is right. I sell a LOT of glyphs, and it's a very clear pattern - I sell 4 or 5 glyphs at over 150g per day, and about 50-90 between the 20-40g sweet spot. Assuming my costs are between 15-20g per glyph, you can see that the vast majority of my profits are from the cheapies.
Also, you definitely see pent-up demand when a high-value glyph drops below a certain threshold. If a "must have" glyph is selling for over about 50g for a while, the first time that it drops to a lower price in volume, it moves extremely fast for a while.
It's awesome when you sell a glyph for 200g, but it sure doesn't make you rich!
(plus, the angry mail from other scribes when you drop the price on a set of glyphs to the 40g range is pretty funny).
eric Dec 2nd 2010 5:41PM
+1 You beat me to it! People won't buy something because it's cheap. They will buy it if they need/want it and it is the right price:
I have more than enough paperclips in my office. If Office Depot sells 10000 paperclips for one cent, I'm still not buying.
I shave my head regularly. If Target has hair dryers for ten cents, I'm still not buying.
There has to be a market for your product. If someone is offering the same product for cheaper and has more supply of it than there is demand, you need to get out of that market.
Ben Dec 2nd 2010 5:41PM
Tatsumasa...
I cannot agree more. In the end, unles your fallback in a given market or item is rediculously high, mammoth undercutting does not change demand significantly. It may change individual buying decisions, but not overall demand.
The reason is that, because the AH is not advertised and, frankly, has an interface that forces you to know what you are looking for to find anything you want, players cannot see that there are shifts in the market. The is no Nordstrom's sign saying HALF-YEARLY SALE EVENT ON GLYPHS! STOP BY!
So, what you say is absolutely true... people go look for the Glyph of ... (Less fail) and either decide to buy or not. In this respect, what drives the demand (looking for the glyph because I hit level 75 and need 3 more) is complete inelastic with price.
Undercutting by dumb margins in these markets is not smart.
Now, in markets like ores, herbs, cloths and other raw materials where people are scanning them to see opportunities to craft or otherwise prospect the materials, undercutting can be EXTREMELY powerful.
I laugh at the undercutters. They craft, sell, and lose their shirts. When they shift off of the glyph in question, I just post fallback and count the coinage.