Gold Capped: Why deep undercutting on the auction house works

In a thread in the comments on my last article in which I had advised a reader to undercut his glyph competition heavily instead of camping the auction house, I got another comment that got me thinking about pricing. It basically stated that every time the commenter undercut heavily on glyphs, he would immediately get re-undercut by a few copper unless his price was down to the point of no profit.
I've written a little about the topic of pricing and undercutting before, but I felt it was time for a refresher. I'm going to start off by quoting what I wrote last March: "If everyone is knocking a copper off the next highest auction, they only way to undercut successfully is to try camp the AH and make sure you're always the competitor who has visited most recently. Needless to say, this is a colossal waste of your time." This is as true now as it was then.
A colossal waste of time
It takes me 15 minutes to list my whole inventory of glyphs. If my biggest competitor and I sat there for a day and did nothing but cancel and relist with a 1 copper undercut, we'd basically split the market as evenly as if we posted everything at the same price, assuming it took us the same amount of time to complete a posting cycle. Since few people have the ability to camp the AH, the variable everyone tries to control is how long it's been since they last posted, reasoning that the more often they post, the more sales they'll make.
This is completely accurate; however, it's a pretty terrible return on your investment of time. Every single person who thinks this way (and there are a lot of them) splits the market according to who relists most frequently. Aside from getting clever about adding your competition to your friends list, the only way to get outside of this dynamic is to increase the size of the pie that everyone is splitting.
The answer is 42
The best way to increase the size of the market for those of us who can only relist every day or two is quite simply to undercut more heavily. There's a universal truth about any market that we can take advantage of in this situation: The lower a price gets, the more units will sell. The more units that sell, the more likely you are to sell your stock. Sure, you'll still get undercut (especially in the glyphs world), but since the price is lower, more buyers will actually buy the glyphs they're searching for. Eventually, everyone willing to undercut you at your price will run out of stock, and your auction will sell.
Also, competitors will be less likely to craft the glyph, because it's less profitable. These days, glyphs cost three times as many inks as they used to, and the only way to get the inks taken by a large number of the glyphs is to mill old-world herbs, many of which go for as much as 60g a stack.
I can hear the complaints in the comments already about my logic. Surely, glyphs are like toilet paper and deodorant: People will pay the fallback price for glyphs because they need them, and they just buy the lowest price auction on the auction house, regardless of how high this price is. Alas, this inflexible demand is a myth. Just because you have the lowest price auction when someone searches for a glyph they want doesn't mean they'll automatically buy it. They may scoff at the idea of paying 230 for something that takes three inks to create and go talk to a scribe friend instead, or they may simply decide they'll be able to hold off a while or use an alternate glyph. The lower the price is, the less likely these things are to happen and the more likely auction house searchers are to buy the glyph.
There's a certain price level at which the increase in the number of glyphs sold doesn't make up for the lower unit price. That point is impossible to pinpoint without access to sales data from your competitors and would probably vary wildly based on the desirability of a glyph, as well as how common the ability to craft it is. You can generalize the principle and refuse to undercut heavily below a certain threshold (mine is 30g), reasoning that even if this glyph stays in your inventory until we're all raiding level 105 bosses, at least nobody else made any money off it.
The best part of undercutting heavily
I've noticed that there's prevalent theme among people who sell glyphs: They believe that raising the average price of glyphs will always net them more profits even if it reduces the sales volume, and they like flexing their economic muscles. This leads them to do things like buying all stock below a certain price and relisting it at their fallback. This is a huge contributor to the profits of the deep undercutter, as every so often (assuming your threshold is set high enough), you'll sell a large portion of your stock at a profit in one night.
Your threshold is key for this: Nothing is more frustrating than seeing your hard-crafted glyphs selling to a competitor for less than it cost you to make them. If someone gets so excited by the logic in the first half of this article that they neglect to read this part, take full advantage and take as much of their stock below your manufacturing cost as you can get your hands on. That said, assuming they don't keep posting below cost, the market will settle into a cycle in which prices start off high and gradually reduce overall as you undercut the most profitable glyphs heavily -- at which point either the demand will pick up and empty the AH, allowing people to restart the cycle at the fallback price of whoever posts first, or some strong-like-bull, smart-like-tractor scribe will reset the market by buying everything you have for sale.
Filed under: Economy, Gold Capped
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Boxington Dec 2nd 2010 5:41PM
"Alas, this inflexible demand is a myth." I think you mean inelastic not inflexible. Nonetheless, calling it a myth oversimplifies the situation.
A more general truth than above is: For any market, there exists some level of inelasticity where the increase in sales does not outweigh the decrease in price, even given the effects on demand and supply you list. If you are below that level of inelasticity, then Basil's strategy would increase profits, but if you are above that level, it would decrease profits. Without evidence as to where on that curve your market is, you might as well be claiming you are right by divine authority.
A better approach would be to just look at the data. I've been pulling AH scans into excel (nerd alert) for quite a while now, and I've been keeping track of number of Glyphers posting (i.e. a measure of supply effects), total market size, portion of time during which I'm the lowest price, and a handful of other measures. Every so often, a goblin fresh off of some gold making guide tries out the deep undercutting method. During this period, total income to the glyph industry is significantly lower (not higher, which is a required assumption for your argument). Eventually the goblin leaves, and the price mechanism returns exactly to where it was before. No one leaves the market besides the goblin, and demand is nowhere near high enough to justify the new lower equilibrium price. All this is to say that market data from my server strongly suggests my market is below that critical point on the elasticity curve where Basil's argument would hold.
Now, market conditions absolutely could be different for Basil and it could actually be the correct strategy for his server, but to suggest this strategy is categorically true and that the opposite strategy is a myth does not seem correct.
Saelle Dec 2nd 2010 6:16PM
This x1000.
I've been in the glyph market for a long time and all undercutting accomplishes is to reduce profits for everyone. It certainly doesn't give the undercutter more profit/hour as the AH campers won't go away completely. Undercutting might lessen an AH camper's frequency but any serious scribe has more than enough time/money to hold off this kind of threat. In fact, I'd make the argument that the deep undercutting strategy has disillusioned most the new scribes that try to profit from it such that they leave the profession altogether.
cincipon Dec 2nd 2010 6:56PM
and now where could you possibly be getting the sales figures needed to calculate total income of a server's glyph market? That is complete BS, and though your argument sounds nice, and you use spreadsheets in an attempt to back up your points, what you say is not true.
Glyphs are moderately elastic and most people will find that their profit/hour is far increased by undercutting to a point where your margins are sufficient. You might find that total gold made over a period of time (not gold/hr worked, but gold / month) will increase by undercutting a copper at a time and hooking up a catheter and iv, but that is not a valuable metric to me.
Boxington Dec 2nd 2010 8:56PM
Reposted from comment system fail below:
@cincipon: It's pretty easy to create estimates of total income if you have time-series scan data (auto pulled and organized by an addon) where you take a scan every 10 minutes (or as fast as your server's scans go). The export as I have it set up carries seller name with each auction posted, and so you can see over time the intervals where people post, and by subtracting out the missing auctions, get an estimate of the percent that were sold instead of just relisted. It's by no means accurate, but it's not biased, and so therefore is a decent estimator. You can argue the validity of this particular calculation, but I'll just share my personal experience that it has very closely lined up with directly observable things, like my own (income * percentage of market coverage). But if you're stats minded at all, the thing to note is that even if the measure has lots of variance, it's still shows up as significant given how large the shock to the equilibrium is when the new goblin enters.
But, let me correct your comment: "Glyphs are moderately elastic ... ON MY SERVER." Don't assume that the elasticity of your server's glyph market is the same as all others. Now let me quote from my comment: "market conditions absolutely could be different for Basil and it could actually be the correct strategy for his server." That's the flaw of so many Auctioneer Interneters. They see something that worked for them and assume it applies in all situations, when the conclusion most obviously depends on the particular market situation.
Basil Berntsen Dec 2nd 2010 11:12PM
Undercutting heavily may or may not reduce the total profits in a market, depending on how many more glyphs get sold because of it. It certainly pulls a larger slice of the pie toward you, though, so whether the glyph selling community as a whole loses or not, at least the heavy undercutter wins.
Paulio Dec 2nd 2010 5:51PM
Another insightful article although truthfully I sometimes I wish Basil would keep all his good ideas to himself. :)
After reading through a few of these columns this past summer, I rolled a level 1 bank alt on the horde side (since I only play Alliance and wanted a clean sandbox), seeded him with roughly 500G through the neutral AH, and then turned him loose on the AH. He is nothing more than a middleman since he has no professions and I have no other horde toons. At first he traded in nothing but ores that had a decent spread between the bar price, but patch 4.0.3 really dented that business model - mid-level Azerothian stuff like mithril and silver and truesilver ore used to be highly profitable to resell, but now they have been trending downward and have yet to recover on my server (and probably won't, either, since it seems like the number of old-world ore nodes has been noticeably increased.) But by this point I had earned some cash to burn and could branch out into herbs, shards, eternals, gems, scrolls, even pets; anything that could be repriced at a profit. After a few weeks of work, this bank alt has cleared five figures' income without ever leaving Org. Not sure if I'll keep going with him since I don't need a pile of gold on the horde side but if I decide to roll a goblin I guess I'm all set. Thanks Basil. :)
Pyromelter Dec 2nd 2010 7:56PM
My suggestion is to play that game with less common outland herbs. Especially Netherbloom and Mana Thistle. With flying available in azeroth, those vanilla nodes will be hit more and more. Mana thistle and Netherbloom are two mats that alchemists absolutely need to level alchemy, and they are the farthest out in the boonies that the game has right now.
Ben Dec 2nd 2010 6:33PM
@Tivo25: The demand issue is just one part of it. Yes, there are a lot of people that don't have oodles of gold. But, most people that have any significant amount of gold will not delay their buying decision based on price. The funny thing is that, whether you dramatically undercut or not, there will always be someone reposting below you. So, because you undercut by a large amount doesn't mean your stuff will sell. False premise.
Also, do the math. I sell glyphs for between 70 and 100g. Assuming that stacks of herbs go for 20g (which, as the author says, can go for 60g+) your glyph crafting cost is 20g+. How much can I really be undercut with any serious profit?
If people want to sell glyphs for 30g and pocket 5g each, they can go for it. They have to sell 10 glyphs for every one that I sell to make the same profit. That's just dumb.
Also, consider that the herb market is completely constrained right now. So, on my server, as many others, you just can't get Outland herbs and high level Vanilla herbs. So, as I predicted, I just waited for 3 or 4 days after 4.0.3a and am not selling my glyphs for fallback again.
Pyromelter Dec 2nd 2010 8:19PM
"But, most people that have any significant amount of gold will not delay their buying decision based on price."
really? lol... Really?
Most people? Well, I've got a significant amount of gold, and I certainly will delay buying an overpriced glyph. I didn't get all my G by just being impulsive and buying stuff on a whim.
The only time price is no object is if it's my main, and I'm raiding like right now, and I absolutely need that gem/belt buckle/flask/whatever right now. Buying an overpriced glyph for a 6th alt is not something that I'm willing to do.
I submit that the majority of people with significant amounts of gold are probably more like me than like what you describe.
You said:
"The funny thing is that, whether you dramatically undercut or not, there will always be someone reposting below you. So, because you undercut by a large amount doesn't mean your stuff will sell. False premise."
But basil said:
"Eventually, everyone willing to undercut you at your price will run out of stock, and your auction will sell. "
So, if you want to talk about false premise, I have to surmise that at some point basil's stuff will sell, otherwise he wouldn't ever make gold. And since I know i've been undercut but still had glyphs sell, I can say for sure that it is not his premise that is wrong, but rather YOUR premise of "there will always be someone reposting below you" is wrong. No one can physically camp the AH 24/7 (a botter might, but haven't seen one of those lately at least on my server).
"They have to sell 10 glyphs for every one that I sell to make the same profit. That's just dumb."
That's not dumb, it's the choice. Do you want to be wal-mart, or do you want to be Tiffany's? You can both be profitable. But the wal-mart way brings a steady stream of income whereas the high-end selling can be very hit-or-miss.
Also, your math is off with milling/glyphs. You can usually get 2+ glyphs per stack of herbs (depending on the herb). Your way still has a much higher profit margin; either way is a legitimate form of making gold, just wanted to point out that discrepancy.
Kinka Dec 3rd 2010 12:54PM
"But, most people that have any significant amount of gold will not delay their buying decision based on price."
WRONG.
I don't Auction House PvP, just doesn't appeal to me, but I also don't run around with less than 30,000 gold on either of my characters. How do I keep a coin purse full without being that sort of player? I don't piss money away on crap like idiot number 54 who posts a glyph for 230 gold. And it's not for lack of spending; my motorcycle and Traveler's Tundra weren't cheap. While admittedly I'm not gold capped, I would certainly call it a "significant amount of gold."
I can say the market would move itself more if you AH jockies decided on a lower bid point, cause I can safely say the number of us that WOULD have purchased a glyph and then didn't while rolling our eyes at the presumption of the phenomenally stupid salesman far outstrips the few who will actually pay 340g for a Glyph of Armors for our mage (what they were listed at yesterday...makes Mage Armor/Molten Armor/Ice Armor last 30 more minutes. REALLY?!)
xenite46383 Dec 2nd 2010 6:59PM
It was a bit funny after the patch everyone was charging 150 gold for mage armor. So I whipped up a bunch undercut them to 80g sold a TON. Then everyone had to adjust prices down to mind, then I undercut them even more down to 50 gold.
It's fun driving the over pricing people down even if I make a little less then I could. I dislike people who price gouge other players for trivial items.
Zamboni Dec 2nd 2010 8:07PM
The price was high because the glyph was taken out of the books for 4.01, so the stock that was already was made was all there was. No one could make more, and 150g was cheap compared to the 500-5000g they were selling for on many servers. Now that 4.03 put it back in the books, it's price will drop back down to regular prices.
Sally Bowls Dec 3rd 2010 11:42AM
On my server, most of the last dozen Glyph of Mage Armor went for 500 to 900g. The last one was listed at 150,000.
Lissanna Dec 2nd 2010 7:04PM
As much as it bugs me when people sell crafted materials for less than what their component parts cost, it also bugs me when people sell things for less than I could vendor the item for. Posting below the cost you could get selling at a vendor is something people used to do with gems all the time, and I'd end up just selling cut "green" quality gems to a vendor to make a larger profit than I could trying to sell them on the AH.
Pyromelter Dec 2nd 2010 7:47PM
Why would that bug you? I must have made at least 1000g buying Forest emeralds for like 3g, cutting, and vendoring. That's like saying "Someone is handing me free gold, it's bugging me."
I've done that with saronite ore smelted into bars too.
gewalt Dec 2nd 2010 7:33PM
Basil is only right for one scenario... If "the market"s fallback is absurdly high.
On one of my realms, "the market" posts at 200g fallback. when I post (this is my alt realm, I dont pay much attention to it), I cap the market by posting one of each between 30 and 60g. I make massive sales.
On my other realm, "the market"s fallback is 40g. I post considerably more often there, and sell considerably less, with considerably less profit. I use the same rule to post there. Deep undercutting would be patently stupid on that realm. Its ALREADY deep undercut.
So Basil is both right and wrong. When the consumers view the market as being absurdly hgih, deep undercutting will yeild higher profits. When the consumers view the market as fair, deep undercutting hurts all sellers.
In short, if you want to have a million gold like me, don't post items at absurd prices ever. Utilize reasonable fallbacks.
Zamboni Dec 2nd 2010 8:13PM
Given the ink shortages caused by Jessica's "update" and an overall shortage of herbs, increasing production and lowering prices may be a good way to undercut yourself right out of the market. A few of the more overzealous Scribblers on my server are sitting on the sidelines because they blew through their inventory early, while the more conservative posters are continuing to rake it in. Sometime increasing your sales volume through reckless undercutting is exactly what you *don't* want to do.
Basil Berntsen Dec 2nd 2010 11:15PM
This is also true- you'll notice my part about the threshold at the end. I actually started this patch with absolutely no stock, and am still using aggressive pricing to take a bigger slice of the market. I won't undercut below my cost plus 50%, but for everything else, I'm dropping the market price by 10-30g a day.
Triskaideka Dec 2nd 2010 8:40PM
Why even bother undercutting? Just post glyphs at a reasonable markup from their production cost (or vendor price, whichever is hiegher). It doesn't matter if someone else undercuts you by a copper or a silver, as long as you're relatively close to the production cost anyway your glyphs are eventualy going to sell.
mehehe Dec 2nd 2010 8:40PM
I recently entered the Eternals Market, and this dude is doing the exactly same thing to me. He is a camper, and as soon as I post I get undercut.. Then he tries to lower me beyond my threshold and buy up all my stock. Fell for it once, now I stay above my threshold, about 3g or so per item. Sometimes he buys it up, sometimes he doesn't. My question, How do I get over the stock advantage that he has over me?