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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: Guilt by association
by Weston Arrowsmith 
Dec 13th 2010 at 8:00AM
I like to think that I'm a good hunter. I show up to raids on time at least 90 percent of the time, I do my best to bring my flasks and food, I keep my gear properly gemmed and enchanted, I research all encounters, and I do very respectable DPS. But despite all of this, I am not recognized by how good of a player I am. Instead, I am recognized "by association."
My best friend is a restoration druid, and he is damn good at what he does. This, of course, means that he gets invites everywhere to various guilds or raids, and I'm simply tagging along as his DPS -- the guy who gets into the guild or raid by association. It isn't all bad, of course. He and I do everything in game together, and we make a pretty good team, so if continuing to stick around with him means staying in his shadow, then that's OK with me.
Of course, the problem with being "by association" is how it is taken with others. If my best friend is promoted to an officer, he's going to share everything with me, so I am promoted. "By association." If guild leadership gets too many complaints about his behavior as an officer (which I never found out of line), it would be unfair to still have me as an officer, so I am demoted. "By association." If he leaves a guild over a dispute with guild leadership, I'm kicked out of the guild. "By association." And one time, he was kicked from a guild because he was defending me against some smack-talkers. Guess who also got kicked out? "By association."
So, fellow readers, do any of you live in the shadow of another? Or do you cast that shadow? Do you ever wish you could find a way out?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Sergel Dec 13th 2010 2:11PM
As a female let me say "That's so sweet." =D
Lol i loved that last sentence.
Amallia Dec 13th 2010 9:00AM
I've managed to cast my own shadow upon myself. What I mean is that my Discipline spec is much more valuable than my Shadow spec. I think this goes for just about any Priest who has dual specs of Shadow and Discipline. My guild is currently short healers and I'm dealing with two issues here: 1.) My guild invites me to raids under the premise that if we get more healers, I can DPS. If not, I'm DPS'ing. 99% of the time, this means I'm healing. 2.) I could dual spec Shadow, and then never get invited. However, this shows that healers are out there and they can find them; it's just that when a hybrid class is available, they don't even try to find another healer so I can play my main spec.
I'm equally well-versed and an efficient player in both specs. Healers are few and far between. I don't mind healing at all, it's just the fact that my main spec is being overshadowed (no pun intended) by secondary spec so much so that I'm contemplating what I considered "main" and "secondary" specs.
The things we do for guilds. :P
Loradio Dec 13th 2010 9:16AM
hmm... very interesting... yes very interesting. I guess since healers and tanks always seem to be at a premium that is going to happen quite often. I haven't felt like that since i haven't run with too many guilds but i can imagine it would be a pain. Good luck on the guild search.
level1paladin Dec 13th 2010 9:40AM
Doesn't seem very mature to demote you when your friend is demoted. Quit the guild.
Eternitea Dec 13th 2010 9:50AM
Started playing in the beginning of Wrath because my then-boyfriend encouraged me. I was a warlock and he was an elemental shaman. He's the kind of person who always ends up in an officer, Raid Leader, or GM position wherever he goes, and often I would get promoted because I was dating him. I didn't feel worthwhile even though I usually was top dps, because I would always just be ______'s girlfriend. When we parted ways, I went horde and joined the server's top raiding guild. Though I'm not an officer anymore, I know I am where I am because of skill, not because of who I am dating. It is possible to break out of that shadow.
Zanaji Dec 13th 2010 11:53AM
The game store I used to hang out in back in the day (yes paper and dice) had a ranking system based on the old Paranoia color system. I started dating one of the guys who worked at the shop and my color went from red to green, but I became "Brian's Girlfriend" when I had previously been just another gamer who happened to be female. It sucked because it really felt that all my "cred" had just gone down the tubes.
mordred Dec 13th 2010 9:56AM
in this thread we have the two types of classic insecure warcraft egos - the codependent and the braggart. :P
Sintraedrien Dec 13th 2010 10:03AM
Don't forget the cynic!
:)
Sintra E'Drien of the Ebon Blade, né Sindorei (formerly of the Horde, now only an ally of convenience)
Saitenyo Dec 13th 2010 2:16PM
Actually I see a lot of good comments on this post from people who were able to find solutions to the problem without sounding arrogant or codependent.
And I gotta agree with Sintraedrien. The snide cynic who belittles everyone else while insinuating to be above the fray is yet another form of insecure ego-boosting. Pot calling the kettle black much? :D
Matt P Dec 13th 2010 10:01AM
It's not exactly the same as what you described here, but I was once nearly kicked out of a guild because I was blamed for the moronic actions of another member whose name was virtually the same as mine. (Curse him and his umlaut!) Luckily, this guilt by name association didn't spill over to the server community.
Lemons Dec 13th 2010 10:51AM
I think I'm usually the shadow caster in most situations. I'm usually the top dps rogue in most of the guilds I've been in. The only time I'm not is when the other rogue is substantially more geared than I am.
I think the other rogues and other dps classes feel like they need to step up and beat me. The flipside of that is that I'm always defending my title. I give it 100% on every single fight because I'm very competitive and I like being #1. Some fights simply don't allow it because the mechanics or whatever, I do put the raid before my own personal dps blah blah blah there's no I in team, but on fights that are "the rogue fights" I like to be #1.
And no I don't wanna get out, being competitive is what makes PvE fun for me. Being competitive within the raid, with other guilds for progression. That's what makes it fun. If they took out all the competition somehow (I don't know...banned dps meters and achievements?) I would just go back to pvping 24/7 like I used to.
Yangli Dec 13th 2010 10:54AM
I expierienced this as well, but I found a workaround.
I started playing the game together with my boyfriend. Eventually, I wanted to raid and researched the realmforums for a suiting guild. When I found one, my boyfriend was okay with it but told me to write the application in both our names. So I did. I believe this was the first mistake that lead to a very awkward situation for me.
After not too long, my boyfriend and I got the job to lead a 10-man group. He acted rather harsh towards people who didn't pull their weight or annoyed him in any other way. People kept getting upset about things he said during raids or even in guild chat, but he didn't notice, and when I told him he said that they shouldn't be so sensitive, or that they had been the first to be unfriendly to him. I then began to whisper people he had upset and told them he hadn't meant it, or that he was only joking, etc. Very, very stupid of me. Soon, people started treating us as a unity. If he expressed views on something or someone, our guildmates automatically assumed that I shared them. Though some people got along with him, there was also a group who held an open hostility against him -- and me, though I liked them and hadn't ever done anything to upset them.
It really hurt me, because I had only wanted to keep the peace.
I then decided, screw this, I'd rather have one or another public argument with my boyfriend, then losing my status as an individual in the eyes of my guildmates. I forced myself to just ignore it when he was upsetting people, and let him run into the trouble he created. I openly objected him in guildchat or teamspeak. And I started doing things ingame with my guidmates, but without him. It took some weeks to take effect, but I managed to get me out of the situation. Only two more times I had to calm down people who were angry at him, because otherwise it would have meant the end of our raidgroup.
Maybe you should try to regulary do something ingame without your druid friend, to be able to get to know people on your own. If he's not present, they might notice you're not his twin or something. Sometimes it is hard to get a clear image of a person via the game, if that person is quiet and doesn't seem to do much out of own initiative, but is always with another player who is more vocal. Also, after four years in a guild that kinda attracts couples, I can tell that it is not adviseable to write one application for two persons, or even ask for an invite to a friend's guild, without applying. That way you will always be "pal of Mighty Resto Druid", and nothing more. Instead, everyone should write his/her own full-length application that contains enough information to allow the reader to get an image of who you are.
Spark Dec 13th 2010 12:11PM
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Yangli Dec 13th 2010 10:54AM
I then decided, screw this, I'd rather have one or another public argument with my boyfriend, then losing my status as an individual in the eyes of my guildmates. I forced myself to just ignore it when he was upsetting people, and let him run into the trouble he created. I openly objected him in guildchat or teamspeak. And I started doing things ingame with my guidmates, but without him. It took some weeks to take effect, but I managed to get me out of the situation. Only two more times I had to calm down people who were angry at him, because otherwise it would have meant the end of our raidgroup.
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One of the many interesting situations to deal with as a GM is player relationships - especially those that go beyond casual acquaintance that makes up a large part of guild interaction. These relationships tend to veer towards the Package Deal; talk to one, talk to both. But it isn't a given.
A large part of how this ends up is simply player behavior. I've had siblings in the guild who were no different than any other two members and siblings that were joined at the hip. I also had one couple who were inseparable. If one had a view, the other would defend that view against any criticism. If the other formed a raid, the first had to be in it or there would be no raid. But if you addressed one and not the other, they would get upset about being treated as a single entity when they were very much separate people, thank-you-very-much; which is a fair point but an interesting trap for guild leadership to step in none the less. Even though this particular couple claimed that they were separate, they really were a Package Deal.
Saitenyo Dec 13th 2010 1:31PM
Yeah, I actually started having a very similar problem with personality clashes and guilt by association when I brought my boyfriend into my guild (he'd transferred over from a pretty hardcore raiding guild on a massive server, and we were far more casual).
Ultimately we realized it was pointless to try to force something that didn't really fit. We had different interests and playstyles in the game, and realized that just because we were dating didn't mean we had to be joined at the hip. We do almost everything together in real life, but in-game he had his group and hobbies and I had mine. He eventually left for a PvP guild that better suited his interests and I stuck with my casual social/raiding guild, and it worked out great.
We still do fun stuff together in game like all the holiday events, and he sometimes subs in raids when we need an extra person, but because he doesn't feel obligated to remain with a guild where he doesn't quite fit in, there's no longer any tension or problems of guilt by association.
Mr. Tastix Dec 13th 2010 10:56AM
The "by association" has screwed me over a few days.
I like to consider myself decent dps but dps is cheap. If you lose one you can just literally make another out of thin area.
I've been respected for my dps but ultimately, it didn't matter. Had I been a tank or a healer then I'd have had more weight behind me. That's what people care about: How you help them, not how you can all have fun and help them in other ways.
It means that if you want to get out of that loop you either make friends with a tank/healer who is a guild leader ("By association" can help here) or prove your worth in other ways, such as attendance or assistance during raids.
The "by association" thing is bullshit. I've lost friends I thought were good people because of this "by association" nonsense. You like me for me, not the people I hang around with. You hate me for me, you shouldn't hate me because I've got a mate you disapprove of.
Brian Dec 13th 2010 11:15AM
I've been a guild leader since practically release (since May 2005, technically). While I have invited "teams," I've never promoted teams. If a player is good enough to be an officer, then I promote. It would be odd to me to promote someone just because they're friends or a spouse of an officer.
Spriestess Dec 13th 2010 11:19AM
I've found myself in the shadow of my fiancee for quite awhile now... but I don't see it as a problem. He's an exceptional player and has helped me 'up' my game tremendously. He's the one who will research how to get the slightest bit of a dps increase, where I'm usually busy chatting with people. He's the one who really wants to be on the cutting edge of progression where that's not as much of a motive for me.
But the thing is that I have my own strengths in game that help our 'duo' out. I'm much more chatty then he is so I'm the one who usually finds that rare gem of a person who turns out to be a terrific questing/instance buddy. My ADHD and inability to focus on one character just means that I have every single profession covered so I'm his one stop shop for enchants, potions, glyphs, etc.
Jamie Sawyer Dec 13th 2010 11:29AM
Had an interesting one myself recently, but from association with an entire group of people, not just one.
I've been playing WoW since probably halfway through BC. During BC, I was in a small, casual guild with a bunch of relatively mature folks. I was also terrible. I mean, utterly godawful. But that was OK, we all were at that time (at least in my guild!). Through 3 iterations of that guild, a central core of us managed to stick together, but upon the release of WotLK, we finally had to move on.
I managed to pick up a spot in a well-known (for a relatively poor server) raiding guild, some of the others stuck to casual guilds, and we even had a couple go off to PvP (heathens!). Over the next year and a bit, we all kept in vague contact, exchanging pleasantries in dalaran, and keeping up-to-date with each others' progress - both in-game and RL.
About 9 months ago, my raiding started to drop. I felt unable to raid multiple times per week (not helped by ICC I will admit), and work/real life commitments had really taken over. At that point, I quit the main raid team I was in, and ticked over doing randoms and the odd pug.
Moving forward to July, I was chatting with one of the original crowd from my first guild, and they were talking about a new raid team they were putting together. 10-man, running on a Thursday night only, with all the old crew back together. Team Casual. By association, we moved into one of the team's guilds (a relatively well-known guild on the server) as casual members, and ran our weekly raid. Life was good, we didn't get burned out, and best of all, we were doing pretty OK on the progression side as well - 10/12 hc I believe we finished off on, albeit without managing to get a try on Sindra hc.
The team got closer still, and by the middle of last month were running our first official real-life get together in Denmark. We got 9 of the 10 of us there (not an insignificant effort - myself as a Brit, along with 3 Dutch, 3 Norwegian and 2 Danes), and had the photos up on the guild's website. It was pretty well known at this point that we were probably the closest team in the guild. The "by association" link had become strong to the point where we were TC, and no longer individual casual members of the guild.
Then it happened.
For the last few weeks of WotLK, the main guild had been unable to field a raid team (although TC had managed every week). The GM decided that it would be best to open up a new raiding day for the team - Thursday. Team Casual's day. The one night of the week for which a lot of us had organised our real life around WoW. The one night a week on which none of the TC members who had mains in the guild's main raiding teams would be able to raid in the main raids. So they declined.
At this point, I would like to point out that the majority of us in TC were Casual members of the guild (7/11 I believe), and the remainder used their alts to raid with TC, and their "mains" in the guild runs.
The GM decided enough was enough, and informed the guild (on the Thursday before Cataclysm) that any persons who would be unable to raid in the main guild run on Thursdays would be required to /gquit. Eventually, it was made clear that what was meant was anyone that wanted to raid with TC would have to leave the guild - "by association" with the 4 (or so) raiders who raided with TC on Thursdays. It was a shame - a lot of us had become quite attached to that guild in one way or another, and most of us would be unable to do "guild runs" on a Thursday anyway since they weren't open to casual members. Guildless a few days before Cataclysm isn't fun, I can assure you.
Happy ending here though, we are now part of a much more casually-oriented guild, who do their own weeklyish raid, and even has a few names from that first guild I was ever in. It's a much more relaxed atmosphere, and has a much sillier name than our old guild, which I think suits Team Casual well :)
Also, apologies for the wall of text here, and that it rather went off-topic, there's only a couple of bits which refer to the "by association" bit... :S
Jeb
knightsamoyed Dec 13th 2010 12:02PM
I'm in this boat. I got my fiancee into WoW last year after she lost her job and was going crazy with nothing to do but fill out applications and mail out her resume. So she rolled a troll hunter, and I decided to try a priest. Little did I know what I was unleashing ^.^
Our two baby trolls got picked up in one of the larger guilds Horde side on our server. Fast forward a few months, she'd been picked by the retiring GM to take over, was in all the raids she could handle, and her dps was over NINE THOUSAND! Ok maybe not that much but she was kicking much butt. Meanwhile i was lagging way behind on everything-but then she has one char she played, while I had more than I knew what to do with.
No I'm not feeling slighted or upset in the least bit. I'm tickled that she's had so much success, and been able to help me get my multitude of alts geared up. when there's a spare spot in a group she's in she'll always try to bring me along, even though to most folks i'm just 'her fiancee'. She'll get to 85 long before I will, and I'll be cheering her on the whole way.
Matthew Dec 13th 2010 12:08PM
I think, that if you're not able to do it solo, and your post suggests that this is not likely, then enjoy the partnership!
The alternative is - to NOT enjoy the partnership and leave I spose.