Officers' Quarters: The guild achievement controversy

Less than 24 hours after Cataclysm went live, Blizzard announced a major change to the way guilds would level up in the brand-new system: Guild achievements no longer provide experience. The change came as a shock to many players. Typically, major shifts in design philosophy such as this occur during beta or even earlier. However, as Nethaera explained, the beta did not provide an accurate picture of guild experience from achievements because most characters were templates without their own achievement history.
It seems shortsighted that Blizzard did not anticipate a rush on guild achievements, particularly in the early days of the guild leveling system when there are so many juicy perks to unlock. Not to mention, achievements were the only way to get around the daily experience cap and powerlevel your guild. If anyone should know the lengths that players will go to in order to reap rewards, you'd think it would be Blizzard.
As it turns out, the game's developers somehow did not see this coming and, unfortunately, the timing of the announcement could not have been worse.
The announced change went into effect after many guilds had already gone on achievement sprees, some earning multiple guild levels and their associated perks. Earning these achievements was not often trivial -- a lot of planning and farming went into earning them. Last Friday's Around Azeroth was a great example. Blizzard then had to retroactively de-level those guilds and remove their perks. From a players' perspective, the only thing worse than being forced to wait for a reward is to earn that reward and then have it unceremoniously stripped away.
The right decision?
I think we can all agree that Blizzard could have handled this situation better. However, the more important question is this: Did the developers make the right decision?
The change effectively removes any chance of accelerating your guild's level. Most guilds will be able to hit the daily experience cap without much hassle. Very small guilds may not always make it. In a nutshell, that means most guilds will all level at the exact same pace. Any advantage that larger guilds might have been able to claim through sheer numbers has been erased.
Is that best for the health of the game? In one sense, you could say that it is. Clearly, larger guilds would have been able to earn certain achievements, such as most of the crafting achievements, far more quickly than smaller organizations. Guild size should be a matter of personal preference, not a throttle for rewards.
On the other hand, let's look at the long-term scenario. At some point and around the same time, every active guild that existed when Cataclysm launched will be max level. Those guilds will have a significant advantage when they go to recruit players over guilds that formed more recently. With achievement experience intact, those new guilds had a chance to catch up faster. Now, they will be have to be patient and live with the disadvantage, because leveling speed is more or less out of their hands.
Discouraging players from forming new guilds may cut down on drama to some degree. It's possible that fewer guilds will split or reform to become more exclusive. At the same time, though, this change may also discourage people from creating new guilds from scratch for the right reasons: because they want to try their hand at leadership, for example, or because they have a vision for a specific type of community.
Right now, I'd say it's too early to tell exactly what impact this change will have. Certainly there are both upsides as well as drawbacks. Much depends on how willing players are to join guilds that have not yet unlocked all the most desirable perks.
What it means
The meaning of guild achievements has changed in a significant way. Prior to this announcement, earning guild achievements was a way for your guild to work together toward a common goal that would benefit everyone in the guild community. Best of all, anyone could contribute. Going after achievements wasn't just an excellent team-building and morale-boosting exercise -- doing so allowed everyone in a guild, regardless of whether they were able to raid or PvP on a competitive level with the other members, to feel like a vital part of the organization. By gathering a handful of herbs or stomping on a gnome who wandered into Hillsbrad, you were making a difference.
Those aspects, by and large, have been lost. Now it feels like your guild will level with or without your contributions, because someone at some point during any given day will cap out the experience. Also, much of the sense of purpose to these achievements is gone. Be prepared for members to opt out of helping with specific achievements. Much like the player-based achievements with no actual rewards, some people just won't care.
Surely there has to be a compromise somewhere in this achievement system between teamwork being rewarded too well and teamwork barely being rewarded at all. We as officers know very well that players respond to goals, but goals are hard to push for when we're achieving them purely for their own sake, with no direct benefit to anyone. Since the goal of leveling faster has been taken away, I would like to see more tangible rewards, such as the Broiled Dragon Feast recipe and the Armadillo Pup, tied to specific achievements.
What's saddest of all to me is that leveling your guild is now a soloable grind. It takes more than one person to level efficiently, but it requires no teamwork whatsoever to accomplish. That was true prior to this change, but the fact that teamwork could level the guild faster was a fun and exciting concept to many officers and players. For that reason, the new system just feels wrong to me. What's your take on it?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Stoop Dec 13th 2010 2:05PM
I'm in a fairly small guild. We're all RL friends or friends of RL friends. We were really looking forward to knocking out these achievements to help level the guild. Now, they're so much fluff.
Disappointing.
Albert Dec 13th 2010 11:09PM
I was greatly looking forward to doing all those achievements to level my guild faster. Redoing all the dungeons but now there is no point. Ohh my guild has more achievements then your guild, like I care.
they will be ignored like my personal achievements
loop_not_defined Dec 13th 2010 4:19PM
There are many amazing rewards that are restricted to Guild Achievements and have nothing to do with guild level. To say they're just "fluff" is confounding. o_O
loop_not_defined Dec 13th 2010 4:22PM
...let's not forget that many of those Guild Reward Achievements are strongly affected by guild size, not to mention some being flat-out unobtainable for all but extremely large guilds (see: Stay Classy and the 8th Bank Tab).
megawatt226 Dec 13th 2010 5:11PM
I wouldn't worry about this 2 much. At some point when all them larger guilds have all their perks, blizz will reactivate XP from the achievements.
loop_not_defined Dec 13th 2010 5:33PM
@Albert
So...you're mad at Blizzard for making it so you don't have to do something you don't care about?
Amaxe Dec 13th 2010 8:29PM
I think it will get harder still:
The wowpedia has this entry which was uncommented on:
Hotfix (2010-12-13): The guild experience gained from quests has been greatly reduced from 100% to 25%.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Guild_advancement#Guild_perks
mark Dec 14th 2010 1:39AM
blizzard tend make thigs easier once theyve been out for a while
i imagine once guilds have gotten up to a decent level the problem of new guilds not having the perks to attract people wil be fixed by.... putting achi XP back in
(cutaia) Dec 13th 2010 2:06PM
It appears they've hotfixed in a reduction in the conversion of personal XP to guild XP, so this should presumably make it a *bit* harder to hit the daily cap each day. Of course, since it was initially "ridiculously easy," this just changes it to "pretty easy."
I just don't understand why they didn't lower the amount of experience garnered from achievements instead of completely removing it.
Brian Carnell Dec 13th 2010 2:56PM
The XP nerf was far more annoying than this. Look, I'm in a very small guild (total of 3 RL people and 8 or 9 characters at most). At first we were leveling the guild fairly quickly. Then they added the nerf somtime on Saturday or Sunday and guild XP just stopped in its tracks. One day we're adding 1.6M XP, then the next day its like 140K for roughly the same play (i.e., # of quests turned in, etc).
They should have left the Achievements and the XP the way they were. Large guilds would have powered through the levels? Really? *yawn* Large guilds already have a ton of other advantages over us smaller guilds. If I cared, I'd join or start one of them. But the achievement nerf in combo with the xp nerf leaves my guild much worse off relative to big guilds than just not changing a damn thing would have.
Again, not that I'm going to leave and join one of these drama factories, but if that was the point in the change, Blizz screwed it up far worse than it already was.
Josin Dec 13th 2010 2:59PM
I just wish I'd stop getting the message about having maxed out my contribution to the guild for the week after EVERY quest...
Darthregis Dec 13th 2010 3:07PM
Being in a smaller guild with 5-8 regulars that are "casual", we're likely not going to make the cap daily any more.
I'm thinking this is the Activision part of Bliz, trying to squash the little guys!
Okay... that last bit, overreaction. The first bit, still holds true...no daily cap for us. :/
Scooter Dec 13th 2010 3:43PM
You know your post made me realize a "simple" solution to all of this.
Why don't they just use an equation to determine exp given from achievements? Take participation time, number of members online per day, time spent by those members, and plug that into an equation to determined roughly how much someone contributed?
Larger more active guilds get less exp. Hell put a minimum participation time on the achievement with a drastic reduction in exp for those who break it and the uber guilds that ground 1000 stacks of everything in the last month will think twice about wasting all of that time again.
I guess this is something that should have been done beforehand, but maybe the game's staff are already implementing it?
Dave Dec 13th 2010 3:53PM
@Brian
There's two sides to this coin though. I'm in a fairly large guild, and for the first few days of the expansion, we were hitting our guild XP cap by 9am server, if not earlier. People who didn't log in until after lunch, or after work/school were feeling left out, like they weren't getting to participate.
On Sunday we had more people on throughout the entire day than we did any of the previous days and we still didn't hit the XP cap until late afternoon. Those people who were missing out before were suddenly able to contribute and it made them a lot happier.
I assume today there's a chance we won't hit the cap until late at night. So for our guild, this was a very good change.
loop_not_defined Dec 13th 2010 4:33PM
They completely removed XP gains because it made Achievements no longer "optional"...which goes against the very spirit of Achievements.
Ikarus Dec 13th 2010 4:47PM
I'm a bit unclear on the daily cap thing. Does this mean people in the guild with no job/school/life that play all day will cap out the daily limit while am at work? so when I get on nothing I do will go to guild XP? So I won't get guild rep or look like I'm contributing? Even if I do just as much but it's in the latter part of the day?
Dukah Dec 13th 2010 5:53PM
@Ikarus
Don't worry, you will get the guild rep (up to the weekly rep cap), it's just the guild won't get any more exp.
Sleutel Dec 13th 2010 6:36PM
@Josin:
http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info18981-1.1.html
"NoGuildReputationWarning
"As there is a weekly cap for earning guild reputation and Blizzard makes sure you are aware of it every time you turn in a quest, this addon was written to reduce the number of warnings you receive.
"The first time you receive the message (for each game session), the message is displayed as normal. However, any future times the message would show up, the message is automatically hidden so you don't see the warning."
It's the best addon ever.
Trem Dec 13th 2010 6:44PM
@(cutaia)
Your "ridiculously easy" is more like "barely obtainable" for some small guilds. Now the "pretty easy" is more like "freaking impossible". For smaller friends/family guilds it can be a challenge to even get 4 or 5 people to get together to do a guild run of an instance.
I'm foreseeing the guild I'm in completely stall at level 3 or 4 now because once we're done leveling to 85 there will be no way to gain more guild experience (or guild rep) at any reasonable rate.
In the last couple of years we have partnered with a few other like guilds so that the people who wanted to could raid. Unfortunately I see this wiping out guild partnering as everyone is much better off just merging them all together.
I think there is only one simple fix and that is for Blizzard to make it so the guild experience needed to level is determined by the number of accounts in the guild. This will achieve two things:
1. All guilds will have the same opportunity to level at the same pace depending on how active their membership is.
2. It will give an incentive to the larger guilds to weed out and streamline their membership.
I say accounts tied to guild as not to harm altoholics. Guilds with 5 RL People with 10 characters each should not be held to the same standards as guilds with 50 RL people in them.
Merus Dec 13th 2010 7:03PM
My sense is that we're "supposed" to be doing things as a guild group, and that questing and guild achievements were only supposed to be a bonus to the bread-and-butter of playing with your guild.